7 ms·

Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

107 points by huy-nguyen 2y ago

mitchbob 2y ago
https://archive.ph/V1Uzl https://archive.ph/V1Uzl
ChumpGPT 2y ago
[flagged]
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Except Indians are the richest ethnic group in the country.
  - decremental 2y ago
    [dead]
  - ChumpGPT 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - root_axis 2y ago
      > I Hope Trump takes care of it and ends the H1B program More likely it will be expanded or remain the same under Trump since he is being bankrolled by Elon.
bigfatkitten 2y ago
In 2003, Jeff DeMarrais would've been on TV telling us that there were no Americans in Iraq.
th0ma5 2y ago
The next administration's think tank's plan to solve this is to eliminate the program altogether. There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. The idea being that only applying for citizenship under the slow process while you are in your home country will be seen as legal, and this is a part of the Chevron Deference ruling. I'd love to hear anyone weigh in on that from a legal standpoint, or offer anything specifically refuting it, and of course all of this will be immediately challenged, so, no reason to feel like the fight has been lost before it has begun. Some stuff about wanting to highly restrict these programs: https://www.rnlawgroup.com/project-2025-and-work-based-immigration-repercussions-of-h-1b-visa-changes/ https://www.rnlawgroup.com/project-2025-and-work-based-immig... https://www.murthy.com/2024/07/29/how-project-2025-could-impact-immigration-policy-for-employers-employees/ https://www.murthy.com/2024/07/29/how-project-2025-could-imp...
- tivert 2y ago
  > There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. Does he actually have some evidence they're planning on doing that, and have plausible plans to execute it, or is it the typical hyperbolic fear-mongering from Trump's opponents? Retroactively revoking the citizenship of every H1-B who went on to get naturalized (after probably a 10 year process and relying on the law as universally understood at the time), sounds like utter nonsense that probably hasn't been seriously proposed and would go nowhere if it was. > and this is a part of the Chevron Deference ruling Do you have any idea what the Chevron Deference ruling was? IIRC, it only says the courts have to make their own interpretation when a regulatory law is ambiguous, rather than always deferring to the interpretation of an executive agency. I don't think it means "all these regs are null and void now, kthxbye."
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    Here's a fact sheet from the ACLU which covers the USCIS denaturalization unit created by Trump during his last administration. [0] Biden dismantled the unit, and part of Project 2025 is reimplementing it. > typical hyperbolic fear-mongering from Trump's opponents Let me be clear. There is nothing hyperbolic about Project 2025. The Heritage Foundation, a prominent Republican think tank, is spearheading it. Hundreds of high-ranking politicians and corporate executives are on board with it. The entire administration is going to push for it, systematically, and get as far as they can. It behooves you to study Project 2025 [1] and understand just how bad the next 4 years can be. Obligatory preface, before it derails my message, the Biden/Harris machine is also anti-democratic, but with a particular neoliberal flavor, while Project 2025 is a largely domestic coup, with sweeping support across the GOP, in a time where Republicans have control of the Legislative branch, Judicial branch and soon, Executive branch. And once Trump begins mass-replacing government workers with sympathizers, there will be little any of us can really do about it. [0] https://immpolicytracking.org/media/documents/ACLU_Fact_Sheet_on_Denaturalization.pdf https://immpolicytracking.org/media/documents/ACLU_Fact_Shee... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
paxys 2y ago
Shocking absolutely no one. It is no secret that outsourcing companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS, HCL, Wipro, Accenture, E&Y have been openly abusing the H-1B visa and the immigration system as a whole for decades. Lawsuits and fines are just a cost of doing business for them. Meanwhile the debate surrounding it always devolves into "pro immigration" and "anti immigration" with the same generic talking points and all of the actual substance is lost.
- Mountain_Skies 2y ago
  In contemporary western society, if you can find a way to label someone as racist, you win every argument. There is no recourse.
  - ausbah 2y ago
    trump winning the presidency twice should prove this is 1000% not true
    - dartharva 2y ago
      It still remains to be seen if the culture will change; as of now the stupidity persists.
    - simoncion 2y ago
      "Win" the argument as in "stop the conversation because when someone drops that nuke they have made it clear that there's no rebuttal that will be accepted". Luckily, once you're in the voting booth, you don't need to argue with someone to vote: all you need to do is make your marks and hand in the paper.
      - simoncion 2y ago
        To be clear, there are racists, and there are valid accusations of racism. I grew up and lived in the American Southeast for a long time. I'm WELL aware of the ongoing existence of and trouble with racists. While my personal experience is affected by being in the SF Bay Area for the past couple of decades, it is my experience that over those decades the overwhelming majority of accusations of racism in ordinary conversation are not invoked because of racism, but are used as a shorthand for "Fuck you, I'm done with this conversation and done with YOU.".
mathattack 2y ago
You don’t say!
bastard_op 2y ago
Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying to get to the US however possible that they'd sell themselves into contractual slavery as "indentured servitude". It was later stopped, but for a time it was a good deal for everyone involved, wink wink. The slaver/outsourcer got cheap labor showing up to sign away, now a captive workforce, all to get shipped off to the promised land with the hope the poor bastard can pay off the debt working for nothing near what the slaver/outsourcer gets, all while waiting on an immigration list that may never happen. It's all better than anything they'll get in their home land, so they'll bet big and do anything just to get to the US to drop an anchor kid to force naturalization. Same(ish) game from 200-some years ago, just with a modern progressive spin and abuse of terrible government regimes. The other scam is they run them through Canada for quicker immigration than US, and then just move to the US as Canadian citizens faster than waiting on a direct list to the US. Anything for that Murican dream and soaking up Murican dollars. Now with this despotic regime for 2025, we'll see how immigration works out, but all the slavers pay big lobbies, so they'll keep on keeping on for sure.
- dartharva 2y ago
  South Asians, not Southeast Asians. Southeast Asia is Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines etc.
- margorczynski 2y ago
  > US to drop an anchor kid to force naturalization I've always wondered why the US didn't change this law (to right of blood)? The current approach was created when the US was just a colony and needed a quick injection of people. Now it doesn't make much sense and creates a plethora of problems as I understand.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    It's in the constitution so it's quite difficult to change, requires more than just a simple majority.
codedokode 2y ago
I don't think "discriminating" is a good term here. If the case was "you do the same amount of work for the same amount of money as our foreign workers, but we don't like the color of your skin" it is one thing. But if the case is "we don't like you because you do less work than our foreign workers and ask more money for it and on top of that you don't want to move into the office", it is a completely different thing.
- desert_rue 2y ago
  Citation on the non Indian workers doing less work? Also the workers on a visa make can be deported if they lose their job. That makes them dependent on their employer to stay in the US. That makes the visa holders less likely to ask for wages at the going rate or to vote with their feet to go to another company that would treat and pay them better. How is that not discrimination?
- p_l 2y ago
  the WITCH playbook is to parade a competent team in front of the executive signing the deal then replace them with untrained people seduced into their sweatshops with promises of riches (but ending up in sweatshop). Local teams hired or acquired are also part of the dog&pony show, H-1B and similar visa deals are used to keep some of the "middle" and up workers on a leash.
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    To those confused, the acronym is like FAANG; companies involved. The playbook is so prevalent I'd argue it extends to anything publicly traded.
    - p_l 2y ago
      There's general publicly traded shittery, and then there's WITCH (for reference, WiPro, Infosys, Tata, Cognizant, HCL). I've seen shitty expense cutting in many publicly traded companies, but there's like this chasm between the norm and industrial grade bullshit. Usually outside of WITCH or directly WITCH-influenced places (because let's be honest, nobody works in isolation, so the same managerial styles percolate as people move through companies), you don't see being sent people that leave you with feeling that the only qualification they had was that they should speak english according to census data. Even the one polish company that is infamous for trying to repeat similar "success" at least churns and burns mostly CS students (its late founder had a saying that you can replace any specialist with bounded count of undergrads, and that the number is usually 1). And I don't say it to be mean about the people - they might be highly skilled in other areas, it's that the company has policy of not training them nor supporting them while they churn through them at lowest possible cost, below what I'd call the thermocline of disbelief and shame - disbelief that other company sent someone so unprepared, and shame of the managers who run operations like that. It's one thing for your typical consulting public company to promise the stars then non deliver, hell I have heard first hand from Accenture exec about problems at intersection of sales, being able to tell customer no, and what is actually deliverable. But there's a definite difference in degree when the "team" that you supposedly paid for is swapped the instant the ink is dry, only when contract is at risk of dissolution for bad performane slipping in someone who does not require being sent a document that has every mouse click one after another documented in screenshots.
dartharva 2y ago
All the USA would have needed to prevent instances like this was some minimal sensible updating of their skilled immigration policies adapting to market shifts, something you can expect from any mature government. Instead the country sticks to something that was passed TWO DECADES AGO without bothering to make even hygiene changes. Downright amazing, if you ask me. Even the primitive socialist governments of failed states aren't this complacent with macroeconomic controls.
impish9208 2y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42365284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42365284
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
cmxch 2y ago
Suggestion: Let the programs continue but consider assessing a hefty fee to those requesting such individuals that replaces all forgone salary adjusted to current day dollars for all citizens impacted - from 2003 onwards up to current day (and beyond) no strings or taxes attached. If we really want the people, the firms will have no problem paying for the damage, much like how externality costs are assessed.

107 points by huy-nguyen 2y ago

mitchbob 2y ago

https://archive.ph/V1Uzl https://archive.ph/V1Uzl

ChumpGPT 2y ago

[flagged]

dyauspitr 2y ago
Except Indians are the richest ethnic group in the country.
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
- ChumpGPT 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - root_axis 2y ago
    > I Hope Trump takes care of it and ends the H1B program More likely it will be expanded or remain the same under Trump since he is being bankrolled by Elon.

bigfatkitten 2y ago

In 2003, Jeff DeMarrais would've been on TV telling us that there were no Americans in Iraq.

th0ma5 2y ago

The next administration's think tank's plan to solve this is to eliminate the program altogether. There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. The idea being that only applying for citizenship under the slow process while you are in your home country will be seen as legal, and this is a part of the Chevron Deference ruling. I'd love to hear anyone weigh in on that from a legal standpoint, or offer anything specifically refuting it, and of course all of this will be immediately challenged, so, no reason to feel like the fight has been lost before it has begun. Some stuff about wanting to highly restrict these programs: https://www.rnlawgroup.com/project-2025-and-work-based-immigration-repercussions-of-h-1b-visa-changes/ https://www.rnlawgroup.com/project-2025-and-work-based-immig... https://www.murthy.com/2024/07/29/how-project-2025-could-impact-immigration-policy-for-employers-employees/ https://www.murthy.com/2024/07/29/how-project-2025-could-imp...

tivert 2y ago
> There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. Does he actually have some evidence they're planning on doing that, and have plausible plans to execute it, or is it the typical hyperbolic fear-mongering from Trump's opponents? Retroactively revoking the citizenship of every H1-B who went on to get naturalized (after probably a 10 year process and relying on the law as universally understood at the time), sounds like utter nonsense that probably hasn't been seriously proposed and would go nowhere if it was. > and this is a part of the Chevron Deference ruling Do you have any idea what the Chevron Deference ruling was? IIRC, it only says the courts have to make their own interpretation when a regulatory law is ambiguous, rather than always deferring to the interpretation of an executive agency. I don't think it means "all these regs are null and void now, kthxbye."
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  Here's a fact sheet from the ACLU which covers the USCIS denaturalization unit created by Trump during his last administration. [0] Biden dismantled the unit, and part of Project 2025 is reimplementing it. > typical hyperbolic fear-mongering from Trump's opponents Let me be clear. There is nothing hyperbolic about Project 2025. The Heritage Foundation, a prominent Republican think tank, is spearheading it. Hundreds of high-ranking politicians and corporate executives are on board with it. The entire administration is going to push for it, systematically, and get as far as they can. It behooves you to study Project 2025 [1] and understand just how bad the next 4 years can be. Obligatory preface, before it derails my message, the Biden/Harris machine is also anti-democratic, but with a particular neoliberal flavor, while Project 2025 is a largely domestic coup, with sweeping support across the GOP, in a time where Republicans have control of the Legislative branch, Judicial branch and soon, Executive branch. And once Trump begins mass-replacing government workers with sympathizers, there will be little any of us can really do about it. [0] https://immpolicytracking.org/media/documents/ACLU_Fact_Sheet_on_Denaturalization.pdf https://immpolicytracking.org/media/documents/ACLU_Fact_Shee... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025

paxys 2y ago

Shocking absolutely no one. It is no secret that outsourcing companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS, HCL, Wipro, Accenture, E&Y have been openly abusing the H-1B visa and the immigration system as a whole for decades. Lawsuits and fines are just a cost of doing business for them. Meanwhile the debate surrounding it always devolves into "pro immigration" and "anti immigration" with the same generic talking points and all of the actual substance is lost.

Mountain_Skies 2y ago
In contemporary western society, if you can find a way to label someone as racist, you win every argument. There is no recourse.
- ausbah 2y ago
  trump winning the presidency twice should prove this is 1000% not true
  - dartharva 2y ago
    It still remains to be seen if the culture will change; as of now the stupidity persists.
  - simoncion 2y ago
    "Win" the argument as in "stop the conversation because when someone drops that nuke they have made it clear that there's no rebuttal that will be accepted". Luckily, once you're in the voting booth, you don't need to argue with someone to vote: all you need to do is make your marks and hand in the paper.
    - simoncion 2y ago
      To be clear, there are racists, and there are valid accusations of racism. I grew up and lived in the American Southeast for a long time. I'm WELL aware of the ongoing existence of and trouble with racists. While my personal experience is affected by being in the SF Bay Area for the past couple of decades, it is my experience that over those decades the overwhelming majority of accusations of racism in ordinary conversation are not invoked because of racism, but are used as a shorthand for "Fuck you, I'm done with this conversation and done with YOU.".

mathattack 2y ago

You don’t say!

bastard_op 2y ago

Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying to get to the US however possible that they'd sell themselves into contractual slavery as "indentured servitude". It was later stopped, but for a time it was a good deal for everyone involved, wink wink. The slaver/outsourcer got cheap labor showing up to sign away, now a captive workforce, all to get shipped off to the promised land with the hope the poor bastard can pay off the debt working for nothing near what the slaver/outsourcer gets, all while waiting on an immigration list that may never happen. It's all better than anything they'll get in their home land, so they'll bet big and do anything just to get to the US to drop an anchor kid to force naturalization. Same(ish) game from 200-some years ago, just with a modern progressive spin and abuse of terrible government regimes. The other scam is they run them through Canada for quicker immigration than US, and then just move to the US as Canadian citizens faster than waiting on a direct list to the US. Anything for that Murican dream and soaking up Murican dollars. Now with this despotic regime for 2025, we'll see how immigration works out, but all the slavers pay big lobbies, so they'll keep on keeping on for sure.

dartharva 2y ago
South Asians, not Southeast Asians. Southeast Asia is Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines etc.
margorczynski 2y ago
> US to drop an anchor kid to force naturalization I've always wondered why the US didn't change this law (to right of blood)? The current approach was created when the US was just a colony and needed a quick injection of people. Now it doesn't make much sense and creates a plethora of problems as I understand.
- logicchains 2y ago
  It's in the constitution so it's quite difficult to change, requires more than just a simple majority.

codedokode 2y ago

I don't think "discriminating" is a good term here. If the case was "you do the same amount of work for the same amount of money as our foreign workers, but we don't like the color of your skin" it is one thing. But if the case is "we don't like you because you do less work than our foreign workers and ask more money for it and on top of that you don't want to move into the office", it is a completely different thing.

desert_rue 2y ago
Citation on the non Indian workers doing less work? Also the workers on a visa make can be deported if they lose their job. That makes them dependent on their employer to stay in the US. That makes the visa holders less likely to ask for wages at the going rate or to vote with their feet to go to another company that would treat and pay them better. How is that not discrimination?
p_l 2y ago
the WITCH playbook is to parade a competent team in front of the executive signing the deal then replace them with untrained people seduced into their sweatshops with promises of riches (but ending up in sweatshop). Local teams hired or acquired are also part of the dog&pony show, H-1B and similar visa deals are used to keep some of the "middle" and up workers on a leash.
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  To those confused, the acronym is like FAANG; companies involved. The playbook is so prevalent I'd argue it extends to anything publicly traded.
  - p_l 2y ago
    There's general publicly traded shittery, and then there's WITCH (for reference, WiPro, Infosys, Tata, Cognizant, HCL). I've seen shitty expense cutting in many publicly traded companies, but there's like this chasm between the norm and industrial grade bullshit. Usually outside of WITCH or directly WITCH-influenced places (because let's be honest, nobody works in isolation, so the same managerial styles percolate as people move through companies), you don't see being sent people that leave you with feeling that the only qualification they had was that they should speak english according to census data. Even the one polish company that is infamous for trying to repeat similar "success" at least churns and burns mostly CS students (its late founder had a saying that you can replace any specialist with bounded count of undergrads, and that the number is usually 1). And I don't say it to be mean about the people - they might be highly skilled in other areas, it's that the company has policy of not training them nor supporting them while they churn through them at lowest possible cost, below what I'd call the thermocline of disbelief and shame - disbelief that other company sent someone so unprepared, and shame of the managers who run operations like that. It's one thing for your typical consulting public company to promise the stars then non deliver, hell I have heard first hand from Accenture exec about problems at intersection of sales, being able to tell customer no, and what is actually deliverable. But there's a definite difference in degree when the "team" that you supposedly paid for is swapped the instant the ink is dry, only when contract is at risk of dissolution for bad performane slipping in someone who does not require being sent a document that has every mouse click one after another documented in screenshots.

dartharva 2y ago

All the USA would have needed to prevent instances like this was some minimal sensible updating of their skilled immigration policies adapting to market shifts, something you can expect from any mature government. Instead the country sticks to something that was passed TWO DECADES AGO without bothering to make even hygiene changes. Downright amazing, if you ask me. Even the primitive socialist governments of failed states aren't this complacent with macroeconomic controls.

impish9208 2y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42365284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42365284

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

cmxch 2y ago

Suggestion: Let the programs continue but consider assessing a hefty fee to those requesting such individuals that replaces all forgone salary adjusted to current day dollars for all citizens impacted - from 2003 onwards up to current day (and beyond) no strings or taxes attached. If we really want the people, the firms will have no problem paying for the damage, much like how externality costs are assessed.