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Older sources: https://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/020515_charter_schools_op/the-secret-behind-those-highly-performing-charter-schools/ https://www.t

Older sources: https://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/020515_charter_schools_op/the-secret-behind-those-highly-performing-charter-schools/ https://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/020515_charter... https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-education/2017/12/14/report-some-arizona-charter-schools-unlawfully-exclude-deter-student/942947001/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-education... https://harvardpolitics.com/arizonas-experiment-with-charter-schools/ https://harvardpolitics.com/arizonas-experiment-with-charter... https://www.12news.com/article/news/education/az-public-school-districts-are-picking-up-the-tab-for-esa-special-needs-evaluations/75-7972b101-1962-412a-9a82-9ba1cbd3cdae https://www.12news.com/article/news/education/az-public-scho... https://azmirror.com/2024/06/06/it-costs-arizona-332m-to-pay-for-vouchers-subsidizing-private-school-tuition-homeschooling/ https://azmirror.com/2024/06/06/it-costs-arizona-332m-to-pay... https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2023/11/17/arizona-taxpayers-pay-lego-esa-school-voucher/71621338007/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/... I also have numerous acquaintances working in various capacities in schools (public, charter, and private) and have to say I regard all the things mentioned in the linked articles as severely under-reported. Retaliation against teachers and staff who try to get kids services at charters is a thing. Public school districts and counties having to foot evaluation costs for parochials is a thing. Refusing and avoiding evaluations for kids in charters so they can be kicked out for behavior and then the publics have to foot the evaluation costs is a thing. I completely think if local districts (and/or families) had a spine or the right legal resources they could be suing charters who've not even tried to follow or service existing IEPs left and right when those kids are constantly enrolling in publics mid year (with those kids generally exhibiting broad spectrums declines against academic and IEP goals).

rahimnathwani 2y ago
If this (charter schools pushing students out) is true it's terrible, and I agree it would be great if the threat of legal action could eliminate it. Sadly, when the risk of enforcement is low, many administrators will ignore the law. (This applies to government-run orgs as well.)
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  Why is this a bad thing? Its possible I'm missing some nuance because I have not dealt with the US education system in a long time, but I think one fundamental problem with universal education is that one really bad student can easily ruin the education of dozens of others. If anything, there should be some sort of behavioral/educational reform schools, probably operated in something closer to a military fashion, to help out not only these kids, but the countless others who they'd otherwise be disrupting. This issue is one (of many) for why if I did decide to have my children go to school in the US it would be at a high performing private school. I'd actually prefer they have the less bubbly experience of public school, but I'm not willing to tolerate having their classes disrupted by kids who are just bee-lining to jail anyhow. I had that upbringing and I think it substantially delayed my 'educational maturity'.
  - zxcvbnm69 2y ago
    [dead]
  - miningape 2y ago
    Exactly, ~10-15 years ago Denmark decided to start integrating "problem" children into the regular classroom and scores have dropped across the board. Currently private education enrolment has been massively on the rise since private schools are not forced to accept these kids, and/or they can more easily kick children out. What's really sad is that now the parents are not only paying extremely high taxes to cover the standard school, but now also are having to shell out extra to make sure their child gets the eduction they deserve. Why this is shocking is that Denmark (the whole nordics) has an extremely strong public education tradition which is being very quickly eroded. Just 20 years ago private education was seen as something for the elites (e.g. Royalty) but now it's becoming an expected expense. Almost everyone is frustrated by this: teachers, parents, students, as well as their special needs counterparts. The only people winning are the politicians who get to morally grandstand.
    - mola 2y ago
      What would happen if there was no private option? I bet politicians would be rewarded for different policies
rahimnathwani 2y ago
Some of these articles are just generic bashing of school choice, and not relevant to the discussion about whether charter schools reject or push out more challenging students. e.g. the last article is about Arizona's ESAs, which compete with charter schools.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  I'd say the conservatives in AZ are transitioning AZ to ESAs over charters because it lets them fund religious education more easily and with less oversight, does away with the equal access fiction behind charters, and is a way to mess with budgets.
et1337 2y ago
I’m baffled by this. My wife worked at a charter school and it was nothing like this. The teachers were constantly trying to get certain kids out of their classroom who were actively threatening staff and other students, and the administration would never do anything. The assumption being that losing a kid would hurt numbers and impact funding.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  Your wife needed to know how to demand special ed evaluations most likely (or get the parents to), since that would create costs and cause action. What you're reporting is typical for a profit driven charter that doesn't have much pressure to show high academic performance and is driven by profit motive. Keeping the kids in the seats keeps money coming in. Probably didn't have much of a wait-list to give them more discretion with behavioral bouncing.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Don't state schools also get money per-child in the US? They do in the UK.
    - giantg2 2y ago
      Funding varies by locality, but yes, the public schools get funding from the federal government, the state government, and the local government. Most local funding is provided by property taxes, which can vary by local housing valuations. Most state funding programs try to allocate funds to equalize the per student funding across the state to help correct the discrepancy by locality. Federal funds are usually grant related, but oftentimes those grants are need-based or targeted to higher needs groups (% on IEP).
  - et1337 2y ago
    Half of her kids had special education needs. You “demand special ed evaluations” and the result is, the kid comes back to your class with an IEP and congratulations, you now have to create an alternate version of each lesson plan. The parent comment captures the education system’s attitude toward teachers perfectly. The problem is always due to a shortcoming of the teacher, and the solution is always the responsibility of the teacher.

rahimnathwani 2y ago

If this (charter schools pushing students out) is true it's terrible, and I agree it would be great if the threat of legal action could eliminate it. Sadly, when the risk of enforcement is low, many administrators will ignore the law. (This applies to government-run orgs as well.)

ANewFormation 2y ago
Why is this a bad thing? Its possible I'm missing some nuance because I have not dealt with the US education system in a long time, but I think one fundamental problem with universal education is that one really bad student can easily ruin the education of dozens of others. If anything, there should be some sort of behavioral/educational reform schools, probably operated in something closer to a military fashion, to help out not only these kids, but the countless others who they'd otherwise be disrupting. This issue is one (of many) for why if I did decide to have my children go to school in the US it would be at a high performing private school. I'd actually prefer they have the less bubbly experience of public school, but I'm not willing to tolerate having their classes disrupted by kids who are just bee-lining to jail anyhow. I had that upbringing and I think it substantially delayed my 'educational maturity'.
- zxcvbnm69 2y ago
  [dead]
- miningape 2y ago
  Exactly, ~10-15 years ago Denmark decided to start integrating "problem" children into the regular classroom and scores have dropped across the board. Currently private education enrolment has been massively on the rise since private schools are not forced to accept these kids, and/or they can more easily kick children out. What's really sad is that now the parents are not only paying extremely high taxes to cover the standard school, but now also are having to shell out extra to make sure their child gets the eduction they deserve. Why this is shocking is that Denmark (the whole nordics) has an extremely strong public education tradition which is being very quickly eroded. Just 20 years ago private education was seen as something for the elites (e.g. Royalty) but now it's becoming an expected expense. Almost everyone is frustrated by this: teachers, parents, students, as well as their special needs counterparts. The only people winning are the politicians who get to morally grandstand.
  - mola 2y ago
    What would happen if there was no private option? I bet politicians would be rewarded for different policies

rahimnathwani 2y ago

Some of these articles are just generic bashing of school choice, and not relevant to the discussion about whether charter schools reject or push out more challenging students. e.g. the last article is about Arizona's ESAs, which compete with charter schools.

Glyptodon 2y ago
I'd say the conservatives in AZ are transitioning AZ to ESAs over charters because it lets them fund religious education more easily and with less oversight, does away with the equal access fiction behind charters, and is a way to mess with budgets.

et1337 2y ago

I’m baffled by this. My wife worked at a charter school and it was nothing like this. The teachers were constantly trying to get certain kids out of their classroom who were actively threatening staff and other students, and the administration would never do anything. The assumption being that losing a kid would hurt numbers and impact funding.

Glyptodon 2y ago
Your wife needed to know how to demand special ed evaluations most likely (or get the parents to), since that would create costs and cause action. What you're reporting is typical for a profit driven charter that doesn't have much pressure to show high academic performance and is driven by profit motive. Keeping the kids in the seats keeps money coming in. Probably didn't have much of a wait-list to give them more discretion with behavioral bouncing.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Don't state schools also get money per-child in the US? They do in the UK.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Funding varies by locality, but yes, the public schools get funding from the federal government, the state government, and the local government. Most local funding is provided by property taxes, which can vary by local housing valuations. Most state funding programs try to allocate funds to equalize the per student funding across the state to help correct the discrepancy by locality. Federal funds are usually grant related, but oftentimes those grants are need-based or targeted to higher needs groups (% on IEP).
- et1337 2y ago
  Half of her kids had special education needs. You “demand special ed evaluations” and the result is, the kid comes back to your class with an IEP and congratulations, you now have to create an alternate version of each lesson plan. The parent comment captures the education system’s attitude toward teachers perfectly. The problem is always due to a shortcoming of the teacher, and the solution is always the responsibility of the teacher.