5 ms·

I hope Matt considers placing all the community resources of Wordpress into the foundation, including Wordpress.org, constituting an actual board, contributing

I hope Matt considers placing all the community resources of Wordpress into the foundation, including Wordpress.org, constituting an actual board, contributing funds, and setting up a governance and contribution system that matches the open ethos of the license and community. I think this is an area that Drupal gets right, and Dries wrote an interesting post about it in October: https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem

recursivegirth 2y ago
This is pretty on the nose considering Matt's latest blog post[1]. I feel for Matt in some regard, and I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty. However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. [1] https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/ https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/
- duskwuff 2y ago
  > I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty 1) This is a preliminary injunction, not a decision. An injunction which resets a situation to the former status quo pending a decision isn't all that unusual. 2) I don't think the issue here is so much a "warranty" as much as that Automattic (et al) set out to discriminate against WPEngine to obtain a business advantage. If Automattic wanted to shut down the WordPress plugin repository entirely, they'd be within their rights to do so. (It'd be business suicide, of course - but the point is that they could.)
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    Given that OSS litigation typically spans decades an injunction might as well be a decision
    - lolinder 2y ago
      For the purpose of preventing action by the defendant, yes. For the purpose of setting binding precedent that affects the outcomes of other lawsuits, not at all.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      The open source nature of WordPress is largely irrelevant to this case. Neither party is contesting the copyright status of WordPress or its plugins.
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  >and I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty If Matt hadn't tried to extort WP Engine he would have been perfectly within his right to say "large hosts have to pay to use the WordPress plugin directory". The injunction is purely about one specific company who was allegedly harmed by Automattic.
  - jonnypants83 2y ago
    I agree in general, but there's still a problem with encouraging people for decades to build businesses around a version of WP hardcoded to .org, not letting them "phone home," not making clear that they were building on a private company instead of a foundation with a clear mission statement, and then pulling the rug without notice. I don't think all of those steps would be legal, either.
  - acdha 2y ago
    The other lasting problem is that he completely destroyed the foundation’s credibility as an independent organization. I don’t see it retaining non-profit status unless he and his cronies are completely removed. It’d make sense for a true non-profit to ask all hosting companies and other high volume users to help fund it, but if it’s not a fully-owned subsidiary of Automattic that’d be everyone, not just when he needs leverage against one company.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  > I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty. Not really. The court order is to restore things to the status quo of 3 months ago, to require that Matt undo all of the things he specifically had to single out to do to fuck over WPEngine. If Matt hadn't specifically singled out WPEngine, and instead decided to stop providing the website to everybody, there wouldn't have been much of a case anyone could bring. > However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. As I understand it, everything Wordpress is Matt in three trenchcoats. Certainly, that's how he's pushing it in his defense filings in this lawsuit.
- junon 2y ago
  > OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty This injunction is against WPcom (a for profit entity) and not WPorg. Matt conducted tortious interference. This sets zero precedent on OSS maintainers.
- throw16180339 2y ago
  > However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. Automattic and the Wordpress Foundation are both Matt's to use as he sees fit. There isn't a meaningful distinction between him and his organizations.
eXpl0it3r 2y ago
I don't see this happening, as it would de-throne Matt and Matt hasn't shown any "remorse", any understanding of him being the issue and that there's a clear conflict of interest. No, in fact he keeps doubling down [1] on claiming that all of his/Automattic's efforts are happening for the good of open source and the community. [1] https://x.com/automattic/status/1866644684057248090 https://x.com/automattic/status/1866644684057248090
- godzillabrennus 2y ago
  Agreed. Matt thinks he is solely responsible for this cafelog fork taking over so much of the Internet… he needs some humble pie…
  - sundbry 2y ago
    Pride cometh before the fall...
linotype 2y ago
[flagged]
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  He doesn't live on the same plane of reality as you or I.
stonogo 2y ago
Advocating, in other words, the creation of a sort of Automattic for the People
- jzb 2y ago
  He would argue that Matty got a raw deal.
  - mgkimsal 2y ago
    yeah yeah yeah yeah.
- sonofhans 2y ago
  Bravo. I haven’t listened to that record for ages. Thank you!
softwaredoug 2y ago
Matt honestly seems unaware this is how it’s done in many projects. I even asked him about it and he responded with “when has that ever been successful” https://x.com/softwaredoug/status/1862510030571860017?mx=2 https://x.com/softwaredoug/status/1862510030571860017?mx=2

recursivegirth 2y ago

This is pretty on the nose considering Matt's latest blog post[1]. I feel for Matt in some regard, and I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty. However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. [1] https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/ https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/

duskwuff 2y ago
> I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty 1) This is a preliminary injunction, not a decision. An injunction which resets a situation to the former status quo pending a decision isn't all that unusual. 2) I don't think the issue here is so much a "warranty" as much as that Automattic (et al) set out to discriminate against WPEngine to obtain a business advantage. If Automattic wanted to shut down the WordPress plugin repository entirely, they'd be within their rights to do so. (It'd be business suicide, of course - but the point is that they could.)
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  Given that OSS litigation typically spans decades an injunction might as well be a decision
  - lolinder 2y ago
    For the purpose of preventing action by the defendant, yes. For the purpose of setting binding precedent that affects the outcomes of other lawsuits, not at all.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    The open source nature of WordPress is largely irrelevant to this case. Neither party is contesting the copyright status of WordPress or its plugins.
kmeisthax 2y ago
>and I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty If Matt hadn't tried to extort WP Engine he would have been perfectly within his right to say "large hosts have to pay to use the WordPress plugin directory". The injunction is purely about one specific company who was allegedly harmed by Automattic.
- jonnypants83 2y ago
  I agree in general, but there's still a problem with encouraging people for decades to build businesses around a version of WP hardcoded to .org, not letting them "phone home," not making clear that they were building on a private company instead of a foundation with a clear mission statement, and then pulling the rug without notice. I don't think all of those steps would be legal, either.
- acdha 2y ago
  The other lasting problem is that he completely destroyed the foundation’s credibility as an independent organization. I don’t see it retaining non-profit status unless he and his cronies are completely removed. It’d make sense for a true non-profit to ask all hosting companies and other high volume users to help fund it, but if it’s not a fully-owned subsidiary of Automattic that’d be everyone, not just when he needs leverage against one company.
jcranmer 2y ago
> I do think the lawsuit sets a precedent that OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty. Not really. The court order is to restore things to the status quo of 3 months ago, to require that Matt undo all of the things he specifically had to single out to do to fuck over WPEngine. If Matt hadn't specifically singled out WPEngine, and instead decided to stop providing the website to everybody, there wouldn't have been much of a case anyone could bring. > However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. As I understand it, everything Wordpress is Matt in three trenchcoats. Certainly, that's how he's pushing it in his defense filings in this lawsuit.
junon 2y ago
> OSS developers are required to provide software with warranty This injunction is against WPcom (a for profit entity) and not WPorg. Matt conducted tortious interference. This sets zero precedent on OSS maintainers.
throw16180339 2y ago
> However, I say that with not fully understanding the seperation of actions between Automattic the company and Matt in his own personal capacity. Automattic and the Wordpress Foundation are both Matt's to use as he sees fit. There isn't a meaningful distinction between him and his organizations.

eXpl0it3r 2y ago

I don't see this happening, as it would de-throne Matt and Matt hasn't shown any "remorse", any understanding of him being the issue and that there's a clear conflict of interest. No, in fact he keeps doubling down [1] on claiming that all of his/Automattic's efforts are happening for the good of open source and the community. [1] https://x.com/automattic/status/1866644684057248090 https://x.com/automattic/status/1866644684057248090

godzillabrennus 2y ago
Agreed. Matt thinks he is solely responsible for this cafelog fork taking over so much of the Internet… he needs some humble pie…
- sundbry 2y ago
  Pride cometh before the fall...

linotype 2y ago

[flagged]

bigfatkitten 2y ago
He doesn't live on the same plane of reality as you or I.

stonogo 2y ago

Advocating, in other words, the creation of a sort of Automattic for the People

jzb 2y ago
He would argue that Matty got a raw deal.
- mgkimsal 2y ago
  yeah yeah yeah yeah.
sonofhans 2y ago
Bravo. I haven’t listened to that record for ages. Thank you!

softwaredoug 2y ago

Matt honestly seems unaware this is how it’s done in many projects. I even asked him about it and he responded with “when has that ever been successful” https://x.com/softwaredoug/status/1862510030571860017?mx=2 https://x.com/softwaredoug/status/1862510030571860017?mx=2