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Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers"

Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers". As far as the UK goes, Hindus and Sikhs, who look every bit as exotic and dark-skinned as Pakistanis, are on average richer than white Britons and also societally very successful. If there is some kind of "pure skin colour"-based racism at work, it somehow didn't stop them from reaching the upper class within generation.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  Canada is cracking down on immigration but they tend to attract higher education immigrants which even if they have a religion, they are more likely to be more secular in their day-to-day. Also, Canada publishes numbers on this and I fed it into Excel: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810034501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=981003... Muslims make up 10% of 2016 and later arrivals followed by 14.04% of their Non-permanent residents. Christianity, Secular and No Religion beat those numbers. From what I understand, Sweden numbers are in 80% of immigrants are Muslim but this is all news articles and such, I'm unable to locate hard numbers. Comparing Canada to Sweden I think is false comparison.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    I wasn't trying to compare Sweden to Canada, just refute the argument it's impossible to integrate large numbers of Muslim immigrants into a Western population. But since you brought it up, 14% of 1 million immigrants into a country with a 40M population is somewhat comparable to 80% of 100,000 immigrants to a 10M population country. And it's not 80%, the majority of Swedish immigrants are repatriating Swedes. Maybe Sweden needs to start eating more Shawarma. It's super popular here in my part of Canada. Helps employ Arabs and acclimatizes Canadians to them.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Canada doesn't accept refugees, they accept highly educated immigrants. That is very different. A very large fraction of immigrants to Sweden can't even read in any language, it is very hard to employ such people or educate them as you have to start with the basics for adults, but it is hard to learn such fundamental things that late in life.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
        Canada takes in 150,000 refugees per year. That's one of the highest per capita rates.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  That is not a refutation, though. Canada is fairly selective when it comes to immigrants. Europe receives whomever the people smugglers can get across the water, and the demographic difference in parameters such as literacy or sympathy to radical versions of Islam is absolutely vast.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Canada is not selecting based on education for the 150,000 refugees it accepts per year.
surgical_fire 2y ago
The problem of this conversation is that "immigration" is treated as one single, amorphous thing. What kind of immigrants are we talking about? What was their income, their skills, their ability to speak the local language, what jobs could they get once they arrived in the country? Answer all those questions, and depending on your answers we may find a completely integrated, successful migrant or someone who lives generally excluded from society. Skin color and religion may play a role sometimes, but they are typically far from being determinant. For that matter, I am a dark skinned immigrant in the country I live in. I also speak the language fluently, am highly educated, and make around 3x the median local income. Of course, I never experienced racism. Change some of those social attributes, and I bet the outcome would be different.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.

stackskipton 2y ago
Canada is cracking down on immigration but they tend to attract higher education immigrants which even if they have a religion, they are more likely to be more secular in their day-to-day. Also, Canada publishes numbers on this and I fed it into Excel: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810034501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=981003... Muslims make up 10% of 2016 and later arrivals followed by 14.04% of their Non-permanent residents. Christianity, Secular and No Religion beat those numbers. From what I understand, Sweden numbers are in 80% of immigrants are Muslim but this is all news articles and such, I'm unable to locate hard numbers. Comparing Canada to Sweden I think is false comparison.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  I wasn't trying to compare Sweden to Canada, just refute the argument it's impossible to integrate large numbers of Muslim immigrants into a Western population. But since you brought it up, 14% of 1 million immigrants into a country with a 40M population is somewhat comparable to 80% of 100,000 immigrants to a 10M population country. And it's not 80%, the majority of Swedish immigrants are repatriating Swedes. Maybe Sweden needs to start eating more Shawarma. It's super popular here in my part of Canada. Helps employ Arabs and acclimatizes Canadians to them.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Canada doesn't accept refugees, they accept highly educated immigrants. That is very different. A very large fraction of immigrants to Sweden can't even read in any language, it is very hard to employ such people or educate them as you have to start with the basics for adults, but it is hard to learn such fundamental things that late in life.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      Canada takes in 150,000 refugees per year. That's one of the highest per capita rates.
inglor_cz 2y ago
That is not a refutation, though. Canada is fairly selective when it comes to immigrants. Europe receives whomever the people smugglers can get across the water, and the demographic difference in parameters such as literacy or sympathy to radical versions of Islam is absolutely vast.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Canada is not selecting based on education for the 150,000 refugees it accepts per year.

surgical_fire 2y ago

The problem of this conversation is that "immigration" is treated as one single, amorphous thing. What kind of immigrants are we talking about? What was their income, their skills, their ability to speak the local language, what jobs could they get once they arrived in the country? Answer all those questions, and depending on your answers we may find a completely integrated, successful migrant or someone who lives generally excluded from society. Skin color and religion may play a role sometimes, but they are typically far from being determinant. For that matter, I am a dark skinned immigrant in the country I live in. I also speak the language fluently, am highly educated, and make around 3x the median local income. Of course, I never experienced racism. Change some of those social attributes, and I bet the outcome would be different.