31 ms·

Integration is a two-way street. I've known many people born in England, France, Germany who feel excluded from education opportunities, workplace opportunities

Integration is a two-way street. I've known many people born in England, France, Germany who feel excluded from education opportunities, workplace opportunities, healthcare and general civil society because of their family origin, cultural background and pure skin colour. Probably also how they speak in the UK. This issue is much less in new world countries (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). Let people into society and they will be part of it. Exclude them and they will form their own societies which you will have far greater issue with. Edit - some examples - Several in the UK grew up in areas with poor schooling because of where they were born (places cheap enough for immigrants to move to). One who for similar reasons (poor local health service as a child) believes they have avoidable ongoing health issues. Black man im the UK cant flag a cab because they just wont stop for him despite being well dressed in a suit. Turkish-parent German feels pushed into 'workplace training school' (sorry I don't know the term) rather than university because of his background - had to do an extra 2 years of study "just because my parents are from Turkey". French woman of notth african ancestry felt she had to leave the country because she is constantly asked "where are you from" and they won't take "France" as an answer. Common thread is none of these people (all well spoken, well dressed, educated, well mannered) feel they had a chance at being part of mainstream society in their country of birth.

inglor_cz 2y ago
Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers". As far as the UK goes, Hindus and Sikhs, who look every bit as exotic and dark-skinned as Pakistanis, are on average richer than white Britons and also societally very successful. If there is some kind of "pure skin colour"-based racism at work, it somehow didn't stop them from reaching the upper class within generation.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
  - stackskipton 2y ago
    Canada is cracking down on immigration but they tend to attract higher education immigrants which even if they have a religion, they are more likely to be more secular in their day-to-day. Also, Canada publishes numbers on this and I fed it into Excel: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810034501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=981003... Muslims make up 10% of 2016 and later arrivals followed by 14.04% of their Non-permanent residents. Christianity, Secular and No Religion beat those numbers. From what I understand, Sweden numbers are in 80% of immigrants are Muslim but this is all news articles and such, I'm unable to locate hard numbers. Comparing Canada to Sweden I think is false comparison.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      I wasn't trying to compare Sweden to Canada, just refute the argument it's impossible to integrate large numbers of Muslim immigrants into a Western population. But since you brought it up, 14% of 1 million immigrants into a country with a 40M population is somewhat comparable to 80% of 100,000 immigrants to a 10M population country. And it's not 80%, the majority of Swedish immigrants are repatriating Swedes. Maybe Sweden needs to start eating more Shawarma. It's super popular here in my part of Canada. Helps employ Arabs and acclimatizes Canadians to them.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        Canada doesn't accept refugees, they accept highly educated immigrants. That is very different. A very large fraction of immigrants to Sweden can't even read in any language, it is very hard to employ such people or educate them as you have to start with the basics for adults, but it is hard to learn such fundamental things that late in life.
        bryanlarsen 2y ago
        Canada takes in 150,000 refugees per year. That's one of the highest per capita rates.
  - 2y ago
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  The problem of this conversation is that "immigration" is treated as one single, amorphous thing. What kind of immigrants are we talking about? What was their income, their skills, their ability to speak the local language, what jobs could they get once they arrived in the country? Answer all those questions, and depending on your answers we may find a completely integrated, successful migrant or someone who lives generally excluded from society. Skin color and religion may play a role sometimes, but they are typically far from being determinant. For that matter, I am a dark skinned immigrant in the country I live in. I also speak the language fluently, am highly educated, and make around 3x the median local income. Of course, I never experienced racism. Change some of those social attributes, and I bet the outcome would be different.
rosmax_1337 2y ago
So it's Sweden's own people's fault for not wanting to do "integration"? Do you believe the average Swede wanted mass immigration in the first place?
- twelvechairs 2y ago
  I'm not apportioning blame just saying that what's happening now is feeding a future of separate societies that probably everyone would rather avoid. I don't believe the average Swede wanted mass immigration but there were immigration policies in place that were put in place by Sweden's leaders on behalf of its people that weren't questioned until later. You are where you are now - you can't unring a bell. You have to deal with the issues of the future now not the issues of the past
  - rosmax_1337 2y ago
    The bell indeed can't be unrung. But, if one understands that what the Swedish leaders did was not on behalf of it's people, you begin to understand what the future should look like.
    - twelvechairs 2y ago
      That's a very cryptic response. I very much don't know what you mean by it. Maybe you could spell out what you want for the future?
      - rosmax_1337 2y ago
        I will refrain, unfortunately. Have a good day.
- eesmith 2y ago
  I don't think any Swede wanted conditions in Syria to get so bad that mass numbers of people felt they needed to leave their homes, friends, and livelihood in order to survive, so no, I don't think Swedes wanted this mass immigration. But it happened. So what next, kill them all? Starve them in concentration camps? Isolate them on islands with no hope at all of integration or work? If only there were some way to unite the nations to set up a better system that could prevent decades of internal war and conflict, or set up a treaty for how to handle refugees. Perhaps even just some sort of union of all the European countries to jointly and equally share the load when refugees come.

inglor_cz 2y ago

Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers". As far as the UK goes, Hindus and Sikhs, who look every bit as exotic and dark-skinned as Pakistanis, are on average richer than white Britons and also societally very successful. If there is some kind of "pure skin colour"-based racism at work, it somehow didn't stop them from reaching the upper class within generation.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  Canada is cracking down on immigration but they tend to attract higher education immigrants which even if they have a religion, they are more likely to be more secular in their day-to-day. Also, Canada publishes numbers on this and I fed it into Excel: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=9810034501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=981003... Muslims make up 10% of 2016 and later arrivals followed by 14.04% of their Non-permanent residents. Christianity, Secular and No Religion beat those numbers. From what I understand, Sweden numbers are in 80% of immigrants are Muslim but this is all news articles and such, I'm unable to locate hard numbers. Comparing Canada to Sweden I think is false comparison.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    I wasn't trying to compare Sweden to Canada, just refute the argument it's impossible to integrate large numbers of Muslim immigrants into a Western population. But since you brought it up, 14% of 1 million immigrants into a country with a 40M population is somewhat comparable to 80% of 100,000 immigrants to a 10M population country. And it's not 80%, the majority of Swedish immigrants are repatriating Swedes. Maybe Sweden needs to start eating more Shawarma. It's super popular here in my part of Canada. Helps employ Arabs and acclimatizes Canadians to them.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Canada doesn't accept refugees, they accept highly educated immigrants. That is very different. A very large fraction of immigrants to Sweden can't even read in any language, it is very hard to employ such people or educate them as you have to start with the basics for adults, but it is hard to learn such fundamental things that late in life.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
        Canada takes in 150,000 refugees per year. That's one of the highest per capita rates.
- 2y ago
surgical_fire 2y ago
The problem of this conversation is that "immigration" is treated as one single, amorphous thing. What kind of immigrants are we talking about? What was their income, their skills, their ability to speak the local language, what jobs could they get once they arrived in the country? Answer all those questions, and depending on your answers we may find a completely integrated, successful migrant or someone who lives generally excluded from society. Skin color and religion may play a role sometimes, but they are typically far from being determinant. For that matter, I am a dark skinned immigrant in the country I live in. I also speak the language fluently, am highly educated, and make around 3x the median local income. Of course, I never experienced racism. Change some of those social attributes, and I bet the outcome would be different.

rosmax_1337 2y ago

So it's Sweden's own people's fault for not wanting to do "integration"? Do you believe the average Swede wanted mass immigration in the first place?

twelvechairs 2y ago
I'm not apportioning blame just saying that what's happening now is feeding a future of separate societies that probably everyone would rather avoid. I don't believe the average Swede wanted mass immigration but there were immigration policies in place that were put in place by Sweden's leaders on behalf of its people that weren't questioned until later. You are where you are now - you can't unring a bell. You have to deal with the issues of the future now not the issues of the past
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  The bell indeed can't be unrung. But, if one understands that what the Swedish leaders did was not on behalf of it's people, you begin to understand what the future should look like.
  - twelvechairs 2y ago
    That's a very cryptic response. I very much don't know what you mean by it. Maybe you could spell out what you want for the future?
    - rosmax_1337 2y ago
      I will refrain, unfortunately. Have a good day.
eesmith 2y ago
I don't think any Swede wanted conditions in Syria to get so bad that mass numbers of people felt they needed to leave their homes, friends, and livelihood in order to survive, so no, I don't think Swedes wanted this mass immigration. But it happened. So what next, kill them all? Starve them in concentration camps? Isolate them on islands with no hope at all of integration or work? If only there were some way to unite the nations to set up a better system that could prevent decades of internal war and conflict, or set up a treaty for how to handle refugees. Perhaps even just some sort of union of all the European countries to jointly and equally share the load when refugees come.