4 ms·

It’s… difficult. I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); p

by dijit 2y ago

It’s… difficult. I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); pockets of extremely isolated cultures living in essentially parallel societies. First, migration is too inclusive and too exclusive of a term. For example it would exclude a second generation individual- and if we are suggesting that religion is an issue, those tend to be more radical than their migrant parents. It would also include people who already have a job and then move to Sweden. In the UK, second generation migrants are often more spoiled and act worse than their comparatively entrepreneurial and industrious parents. Then, to conflate matters even further there’s the issue that these parallel societies typically are poorer than the middle-class areas of the host country; and a correlation between wealth and crime is really strong. So, it’s too reductive to claim anything relating to migration here. It’s an impossible conversation, and filled with conflicting personas in data and it is therefore difficult to contextualise with statistics.

Yeul 2y ago
It's too easy to blame this all on immigrants. Let's not pretend the native population actually wants to mix.
- dijit 2y ago
  Thats a separate problem, one I would agree with you on. But I don’t think using statistics (badly) is a way of having that particular conversation. Its too easy to end up in a conversation about nothing.
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  Is it the fault of the native population for not wanting to mix? A weird fact about Sweden is that if a popular vote was ever held on immigration alone, we would never have had this situation. The polls on the issue have always been in majority "against" mass immigration. So for some reason democracy doesn't work over here. Maybe you've had better luck where you're at.
rosmax_1337 2y ago
No, it's not too reductive to claim that immigration has lead to problems. It's quite plainly obvious at this point. The only reason why ones mind will struggle to grasp this is because you understand that there are severe consequences for openly criticizing immigration. Your mind will conjure "nuances" to allow you to avoid confronting the idea that something has to change, and allow you to remain socially, financially, even legally safe. As you live here in Sweden you will be aware of the number of people sentenced to prison for criticizing immigration, due to the hate speech legislation here.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  It's too reductive to claim that immigration didn't cause problems, and it's too reductive to claim that immigration is the source of most of the problems.
  - rosmax_1337 2y ago
    What do you think causes the problems?
    - ipaddr 2y ago
      It being a taboo topic prevents real discussion. The cause is a single genetically and socially society allowing mass immigration but not changing society to match the newcomers and/or not selecting newcomers based on culture similarities and/or not bridging the divide. When you make a mass immigration commitment you need to follow it up with tons of work/money/education/discussion. That's why it fails in Europe but succeeds elsewhere. Then they make it impossible to succeed by limiting discussion and calling it hate speech. North America has two different approaches. Leave who you are behind and become an American. Keep who you are and become Something/Canadian. Sweden wants it both ways.. leave who you are behind but never become Swedish.
      - rosmax_1337 2y ago
        Do you think the average Swede wanted mass immigration?
twelvechairs 2y ago
Integration is a two-way street. I've known many people born in England, France, Germany who feel excluded from education opportunities, workplace opportunities, healthcare and general civil society because of their family origin, cultural background and pure skin colour. Probably also how they speak in the UK. This issue is much less in new world countries (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). Let people into society and they will be part of it. Exclude them and they will form their own societies which you will have far greater issue with. Edit - some examples - Several in the UK grew up in areas with poor schooling because of where they were born (places cheap enough for immigrants to move to). One who for similar reasons (poor local health service as a child) believes they have avoidable ongoing health issues. Black man im the UK cant flag a cab because they just wont stop for him despite being well dressed in a suit. Turkish-parent German feels pushed into 'workplace training school' (sorry I don't know the term) rather than university because of his background - had to do an extra 2 years of study "just because my parents are from Turkey". French woman of notth african ancestry felt she had to leave the country because she is constantly asked "where are you from" and they won't take "France" as an answer. Common thread is none of these people (all well spoken, well dressed, educated, well mannered) feel they had a chance at being part of mainstream society in their country of birth.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers". As far as the UK goes, Hindus and Sikhs, who look every bit as exotic and dark-skinned as Pakistanis, are on average richer than white Britons and also societally very successful. If there is some kind of "pure skin colour"-based racism at work, it somehow didn't stop them from reaching the upper class within generation.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
    - 2y ago

by dijit 2y ago

Yeul 2y ago

It's too easy to blame this all on immigrants. Let's not pretend the native population actually wants to mix.

dijit 2y ago
Thats a separate problem, one I would agree with you on. But I don’t think using statistics (badly) is a way of having that particular conversation. Its too easy to end up in a conversation about nothing.
rosmax_1337 2y ago
Is it the fault of the native population for not wanting to mix? A weird fact about Sweden is that if a popular vote was ever held on immigration alone, we would never have had this situation. The polls on the issue have always been in majority "against" mass immigration. So for some reason democracy doesn't work over here. Maybe you've had better luck where you're at.

rosmax_1337 2y ago

No, it's not too reductive to claim that immigration has lead to problems. It's quite plainly obvious at this point. The only reason why ones mind will struggle to grasp this is because you understand that there are severe consequences for openly criticizing immigration. Your mind will conjure "nuances" to allow you to avoid confronting the idea that something has to change, and allow you to remain socially, financially, even legally safe. As you live here in Sweden you will be aware of the number of people sentenced to prison for criticizing immigration, due to the hate speech legislation here.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
It's too reductive to claim that immigration didn't cause problems, and it's too reductive to claim that immigration is the source of most of the problems.
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  What do you think causes the problems?
  - ipaddr 2y ago
    It being a taboo topic prevents real discussion. The cause is a single genetically and socially society allowing mass immigration but not changing society to match the newcomers and/or not selecting newcomers based on culture similarities and/or not bridging the divide. When you make a mass immigration commitment you need to follow it up with tons of work/money/education/discussion. That's why it fails in Europe but succeeds elsewhere. Then they make it impossible to succeed by limiting discussion and calling it hate speech. North America has two different approaches. Leave who you are behind and become an American. Keep who you are and become Something/Canadian. Sweden wants it both ways.. leave who you are behind but never become Swedish.
    - rosmax_1337 2y ago
      Do you think the average Swede wanted mass immigration?

twelvechairs 2y ago

Integration is a two-way street. I've known many people born in England, France, Germany who feel excluded from education opportunities, workplace opportunities, healthcare and general civil society because of their family origin, cultural background and pure skin colour. Probably also how they speak in the UK. This issue is much less in new world countries (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). Let people into society and they will be part of it. Exclude them and they will form their own societies which you will have far greater issue with. Edit - some examples - Several in the UK grew up in areas with poor schooling because of where they were born (places cheap enough for immigrants to move to). One who for similar reasons (poor local health service as a child) believes they have avoidable ongoing health issues. Black man im the UK cant flag a cab because they just wont stop for him despite being well dressed in a suit. Turkish-parent German feels pushed into 'workplace training school' (sorry I don't know the term) rather than university because of his background - had to do an extra 2 years of study "just because my parents are from Turkey". French woman of notth african ancestry felt she had to leave the country because she is constantly asked "where are you from" and they won't take "France" as an answer. Common thread is none of these people (all well spoken, well dressed, educated, well mannered) feel they had a chance at being part of mainstream society in their country of birth.

inglor_cz 2y ago
Integration of randomly arrived (as opposed to selectively chosen and well-educated) Muslims has proved nigh impossible everywhere in the world of "unbelievers". As far as the UK goes, Hindus and Sikhs, who look every bit as exotic and dark-skinned as Pakistanis, are on average richer than white Britons and also societally very successful. If there is some kind of "pure skin colour"-based racism at work, it somehow didn't stop them from reaching the upper class within generation.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Canada does a relatively good job integrating Muslims.
  - 2y ago