6 ms·

Are you saying that the violence is caused by the immigrants directly or indirectly? I can’t say for Sweden but in the Texas immigrants commit crimes at lower

by redeux 2y ago

Are you saying that the violence is caused by the immigrants directly or indirectly? I can’t say for Sweden but in the Texas immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than citizens[1]. There doesn’t seem to be a good source of data for the US as a whole. 1. https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o...

mihaic 2y ago
The profile of the average Swedish immigrant is different than the average US one. Many EU countries have counted and have seen immigrants commit disproportionally more crime.
- nielsbot 2y ago
  Is there a study I can read for this?
  - knallfrosch 2y ago
    To stay on-topic and on-source: "[Gang violence] is concentrated in highly segregated immigrant neighbourhoods. In Husby, a suburb of Stockholm, more than 80% of the population are migrants or the children of migrants, most of them from Iraq, Somalia, Syria and Turkey." https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/11/28/why-sweden-struggles-to-curb-gang-violence https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/11/28/why-sweden-strug... Do you have a counter-factual source showing that immigrants are not more violent in Sweden?
    - eesmith 2y ago
      That does not show that immigrants are more violent. Gang violence is not the only form of violence. Are there really no forms of violence which are concentrated in highly segregated ethnic Swedish neighborhoods? And there are non-violent crimes. Another question is, are the numbers of immigrants who do not live in highly segregated immigrant neighborhoods with gang violence? It looks like over 1 million people in Sweden were born outside of Europe, or 10% of the population. They can't all be involved in violent crimes. The Wikipedia entry for Husby points out the crime rates increased 'after the closure of the closest police station to Husby, in Rinkeby, in 2014. The station was reopened on the first of September 2023.' The Economist article you linked to was written in 2020. Which leads me to wonder if immigrant neighborhoods were under-protected, which would place at least some blame on government failure rather than the people living there.
    - nielsbot 2y ago
      I don't. I did find a publication from the Swedish government about this: https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/ https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migra... They say people with 2-foreign born parents are overrepresented in the statistics of crime suspects. Does that translate to guilty of crimes? Maybe, but I would place money that racism and discrimination especially in more homogenous societies plays a part. People generally are averse to change and it's understandable that they feel loss and apprehension when they see their society under transformation, especially by people who look different than them, dress differently, speak a different language and eat different foods. But immigration can be a gain in other ways.
      - knallfrosch 2y ago
        > They say people with 2-foreign born parents are overrepresented in the statistics of crime suspects. Does that translate to guilty of crimes? Maybe, but I would place money that racism and discrimination especially in more homogenous societies plays a part. With that logic, I don't know what sort of statistic could even convince you. As an aside, one uses prosecution (instead of guilty verdicts) simply because the statistics for prosecution are available.
dartos 2y ago
To nitpick a bit. That article is about _arrests_ not crimes committed. Undocumented folk are arrested less frequently, but that doesn’t necessarily mean fewer crimes are committed. It could just as likely be that undocumented folk probably live in areas with fewer police stations. Or that crimes caused by undocumented folk to other undocumented folk go unreported and don’t lead to arrests. Unfortunately nothing is cut and dry when it comes to crime stats :(
cm2012 2y ago
The data suggests that immigrants to America have lower crime rates than Americans but European immigrants have higher crime rates than Europeans. This reflects the relative criminality of all four groups.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  It's not that straightforward, though. US is much better at attracting highly educated and highly productive workers because of considerable higher wages and demand for labour than in Europe. While Europe is more of a fallback options for people who can't do better (I mean relatively of course as proportion of all immigrants).
dijit 2y ago
It’s… difficult. I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); pockets of extremely isolated cultures living in essentially parallel societies. First, migration is too inclusive and too exclusive of a term. For example it would exclude a second generation individual- and if we are suggesting that religion is an issue, those tend to be more radical than their migrant parents. It would also include people who already have a job and then move to Sweden. In the UK, second generation migrants are often more spoiled and act worse than their comparatively entrepreneurial and industrious parents. Then, to conflate matters even further there’s the issue that these parallel societies typically are poorer than the middle-class areas of the host country; and a correlation between wealth and crime is really strong. So, it’s too reductive to claim anything relating to migration here. It’s an impossible conversation, and filled with conflicting personas in data and it is therefore difficult to contextualise with statistics.
- Yeul 2y ago
  It's too easy to blame this all on immigrants. Let's not pretend the native population actually wants to mix.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Thats a separate problem, one I would agree with you on. But I don’t think using statistics (badly) is a way of having that particular conversation. Its too easy to end up in a conversation about nothing.
  - rosmax_1337 2y ago
    Is it the fault of the native population for not wanting to mix? A weird fact about Sweden is that if a popular vote was ever held on immigration alone, we would never have had this situation. The polls on the issue have always been in majority "against" mass immigration. So for some reason democracy doesn't work over here. Maybe you've had better luck where you're at.
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  No, it's not too reductive to claim that immigration has lead to problems. It's quite plainly obvious at this point. The only reason why ones mind will struggle to grasp this is because you understand that there are severe consequences for openly criticizing immigration. Your mind will conjure "nuances" to allow you to avoid confronting the idea that something has to change, and allow you to remain socially, financially, even legally safe. As you live here in Sweden you will be aware of the number of people sentenced to prison for criticizing immigration, due to the hate speech legislation here.
bjornsing 2y ago
Sweden is the opposite to Texas in many ways. One of them is that here immigrants do commit far more violent crime than natural citizens, on a per-capita basis.
AlexandrB 2y ago
In Germany the opposite is true[1]. I don't think it's wise to lump "immigrants" together as a group. The composition of immigrant populations varies a lot between countries (or even cities) and as with any individual criminality depends on factors like socioeconomic background. The specifics of immigration matter. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45419466 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45419466
- knallfrosch 2y ago
  The article is outdated (2018.)
  - Jensson 2y ago
    2018 is extremely recent in terms of demographics data.
Dig1t 2y ago
Saying that all immigrants behave the same across the world is like saying all groups of people are the same. The failure of Syrian, Afghan, and Iraqi immigrants to integrate into Swedish culture is well documented. They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records-record-high-number-of-shooting-deaths-in-september https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records... >In a national address on Thursday night, the prime minister, Ulf Kristersson, said it was “a difficult time for Sweden”, blaming “political naivety” and “unsuccessful integration”.
- eesmith 2y ago
  > unlike immigrants in Texas. Would successful integration be like in Texas where most Anglos have little knowledge of Tejano culture? Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants who moved to Mexican Texas and promised to follow Mexican law and become Catholic but after they gained power they declared independence as a pro-slavery country, then after economic failure decided to join a neighboring country? The Amish are successfully integrated into Pennsylvania, right? Even though they exist almost as a separate society?
  - Dig1t 2y ago
    From the article: >The impulse behind it is a sense of helplessness over a long-term rise in violent crime. Ten years ago Sweden, with 10m people, had one of the lowest rates of gun violence and murder in Europe. It now has one of the highest, averaging a shooting a day. In 2022, 62 people were shot dead; last year it was 53. The Amish are not shooting people or forming violent gangs, comparing the two is not really a good example. In fact your comparison makes the point that the real reason for the problem in Sweden is the culture of the immigrants and not just the fact that they are immigrants or live as a separate society. The Amish are deeply non-violent, and have no problem existing alongside the rest of the country. The same is not true in Sweden. >Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants It wasn't colonized by only people of Anglo-Saxon origin, but people from all over Europe including Eastern Europe. But yes, Texas was created in the same way that Mexico itself was created and that almost every other nation was created. I think almost every Swede would consider it to be a bad thing if the same thing happened in Sweden.
tlakern10 2y ago
I think that may be because Texas gets Hispanic immigrants, whereas Europe gets immigrants from Islamic regions that have been disrupted by either the U.S. or Russia (mostly the U.S. though). There should be an UN resolution that says: "You start a war, you take the immigrants."
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Sending Ukrainian refugees to Russia would be highly unproductive. And where do you send the refugees from civil wars?
- hulitu 2y ago
  > There should be an UN resolution that says: "You start a war, you take the immigrants." "We need the natural resources, not the people" /s
  - MrHamburger 2y ago
    For dying off Russia, it might be both.
tim333 2y ago
A lot depends on who the immigrants are. You are obviously going to get more problems if they are say criminals from some war zone as opposed to PhDs coming to teach at the university etc.
permo-w 2y ago
the US is very demographically different to Sweden

by redeux 2y ago

mihaic 2y ago

The profile of the average Swedish immigrant is different than the average US one. Many EU countries have counted and have seen immigrants commit disproportionally more crime.

nielsbot 2y ago
Is there a study I can read for this?
- knallfrosch 2y ago
  To stay on-topic and on-source: "[Gang violence] is concentrated in highly segregated immigrant neighbourhoods. In Husby, a suburb of Stockholm, more than 80% of the population are migrants or the children of migrants, most of them from Iraq, Somalia, Syria and Turkey." https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/11/28/why-sweden-struggles-to-curb-gang-violence https://www.economist.com/europe/2020/11/28/why-sweden-strug... Do you have a counter-factual source showing that immigrants are not more violent in Sweden?
  - eesmith 2y ago
    That does not show that immigrants are more violent. Gang violence is not the only form of violence. Are there really no forms of violence which are concentrated in highly segregated ethnic Swedish neighborhoods? And there are non-violent crimes. Another question is, are the numbers of immigrants who do not live in highly segregated immigrant neighborhoods with gang violence? It looks like over 1 million people in Sweden were born outside of Europe, or 10% of the population. They can't all be involved in violent crimes. The Wikipedia entry for Husby points out the crime rates increased 'after the closure of the closest police station to Husby, in Rinkeby, in 2014. The station was reopened on the first of September 2023.' The Economist article you linked to was written in 2020. Which leads me to wonder if immigrant neighborhoods were under-protected, which would place at least some blame on government failure rather than the people living there.
  - nielsbot 2y ago
    I don't. I did find a publication from the Swedish government about this: https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/ https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migra... They say people with 2-foreign born parents are overrepresented in the statistics of crime suspects. Does that translate to guilty of crimes? Maybe, but I would place money that racism and discrimination especially in more homogenous societies plays a part. People generally are averse to change and it's understandable that they feel loss and apprehension when they see their society under transformation, especially by people who look different than them, dress differently, speak a different language and eat different foods. But immigration can be a gain in other ways.
    - knallfrosch 2y ago
      > They say people with 2-foreign born parents are overrepresented in the statistics of crime suspects. Does that translate to guilty of crimes? Maybe, but I would place money that racism and discrimination especially in more homogenous societies plays a part. With that logic, I don't know what sort of statistic could even convince you. As an aside, one uses prosecution (instead of guilty verdicts) simply because the statistics for prosecution are available.

dartos 2y ago

To nitpick a bit. That article is about _arrests_ not crimes committed. Undocumented folk are arrested less frequently, but that doesn’t necessarily mean fewer crimes are committed. It could just as likely be that undocumented folk probably live in areas with fewer police stations. Or that crimes caused by undocumented folk to other undocumented folk go unreported and don’t lead to arrests. Unfortunately nothing is cut and dry when it comes to crime stats :(

cm2012 2y ago

The data suggests that immigrants to America have lower crime rates than Americans but European immigrants have higher crime rates than Europeans. This reflects the relative criminality of all four groups.

Wytwwww 2y ago
It's not that straightforward, though. US is much better at attracting highly educated and highly productive workers because of considerable higher wages and demand for labour than in Europe. While Europe is more of a fallback options for people who can't do better (I mean relatively of course as proportion of all immigrants).

dijit 2y ago

It’s… difficult. I live in Sweden and the issues of lack of integration are eerily similar to those that affect the UK (where I was born and raised 80s-10s); pockets of extremely isolated cultures living in essentially parallel societies. First, migration is too inclusive and too exclusive of a term. For example it would exclude a second generation individual- and if we are suggesting that religion is an issue, those tend to be more radical than their migrant parents. It would also include people who already have a job and then move to Sweden. In the UK, second generation migrants are often more spoiled and act worse than their comparatively entrepreneurial and industrious parents. Then, to conflate matters even further there’s the issue that these parallel societies typically are poorer than the middle-class areas of the host country; and a correlation between wealth and crime is really strong. So, it’s too reductive to claim anything relating to migration here. It’s an impossible conversation, and filled with conflicting personas in data and it is therefore difficult to contextualise with statistics.

Yeul 2y ago
It's too easy to blame this all on immigrants. Let's not pretend the native population actually wants to mix.
- dijit 2y ago
  Thats a separate problem, one I would agree with you on. But I don’t think using statistics (badly) is a way of having that particular conversation. Its too easy to end up in a conversation about nothing.
- rosmax_1337 2y ago
  Is it the fault of the native population for not wanting to mix? A weird fact about Sweden is that if a popular vote was ever held on immigration alone, we would never have had this situation. The polls on the issue have always been in majority "against" mass immigration. So for some reason democracy doesn't work over here. Maybe you've had better luck where you're at.
rosmax_1337 2y ago
No, it's not too reductive to claim that immigration has lead to problems. It's quite plainly obvious at this point. The only reason why ones mind will struggle to grasp this is because you understand that there are severe consequences for openly criticizing immigration. Your mind will conjure "nuances" to allow you to avoid confronting the idea that something has to change, and allow you to remain socially, financially, even legally safe. As you live here in Sweden you will be aware of the number of people sentenced to prison for criticizing immigration, due to the hate speech legislation here.

bjornsing 2y ago

Sweden is the opposite to Texas in many ways. One of them is that here immigrants do commit far more violent crime than natural citizens, on a per-capita basis.

AlexandrB 2y ago

In Germany the opposite is true[1]. I don't think it's wise to lump "immigrants" together as a group. The composition of immigrant populations varies a lot between countries (or even cities) and as with any individual criminality depends on factors like socioeconomic background. The specifics of immigration matter. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45419466 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45419466

knallfrosch 2y ago
The article is outdated (2018.)
- Jensson 2y ago
  2018 is extremely recent in terms of demographics data.

Dig1t 2y ago

Saying that all immigrants behave the same across the world is like saying all groups of people are the same. The failure of Syrian, Afghan, and Iraqi immigrants to integrate into Swedish culture is well documented. They exist almost as a separate society within Sweden now, unlike immigrants in Texas. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records-record-high-number-of-shooting-deaths-in-september https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/28/sweden-records... >In a national address on Thursday night, the prime minister, Ulf Kristersson, said it was “a difficult time for Sweden”, blaming “political naivety” and “unsuccessful integration”.

eesmith 2y ago
> unlike immigrants in Texas. Would successful integration be like in Texas where most Anglos have little knowledge of Tejano culture? Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants who moved to Mexican Texas and promised to follow Mexican law and become Catholic but after they gained power they declared independence as a pro-slavery country, then after economic failure decided to join a neighboring country? The Amish are successfully integrated into Pennsylvania, right? Even though they exist almost as a separate society?
- Dig1t 2y ago
  From the article: >The impulse behind it is a sense of helplessness over a long-term rise in violent crime. Ten years ago Sweden, with 10m people, had one of the lowest rates of gun violence and murder in Europe. It now has one of the highest, averaging a shooting a day. In 2022, 62 people were shot dead; last year it was 53. The Amish are not shooting people or forming violent gangs, comparing the two is not really a good example. In fact your comparison makes the point that the real reason for the problem in Sweden is the culture of the immigrants and not just the fact that they are immigrants or live as a separate society. The Amish are deeply non-violent, and have no problem existing alongside the rest of the country. The same is not true in Sweden. >Or perhaps you mean the Anglo immigrants It wasn't colonized by only people of Anglo-Saxon origin, but people from all over Europe including Eastern Europe. But yes, Texas was created in the same way that Mexico itself was created and that almost every other nation was created. I think almost every Swede would consider it to be a bad thing if the same thing happened in Sweden.

tlakern10 2y ago

I think that may be because Texas gets Hispanic immigrants, whereas Europe gets immigrants from Islamic regions that have been disrupted by either the U.S. or Russia (mostly the U.S. though). There should be an UN resolution that says: "You start a war, you take the immigrants."

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Sending Ukrainian refugees to Russia would be highly unproductive. And where do you send the refugees from civil wars?
hulitu 2y ago
> There should be an UN resolution that says: "You start a war, you take the immigrants." "We need the natural resources, not the people" /s
- MrHamburger 2y ago
  For dying off Russia, it might be both.

tim333 2y ago

A lot depends on who the immigrants are. You are obviously going to get more problems if they are say criminals from some war zone as opposed to PhDs coming to teach at the university etc.

permo-w 2y ago

the US is very demographically different to Sweden