4 ms·

More than ever basic computer science, economics, political science, and security fundamentals are needed to at least avoid being complete NPCs. Unfortunately i

More than ever basic computer science, economics, political science, and security fundamentals are needed to at least avoid being complete NPCs. Unfortunately intellectual pursuits are looked down upon (perhaps by design)

te_chris 2y ago
Not least by the idiots in power saying STEM STEM STEM and defunding the departments that provide context to the world.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  I had a similar argument this morning with friends. Italy has a strong humanities imprinting in its society and school programs, and math/physics are usually taught in a horrible way, with the end result that people saying "I can't do math ahahah" are quite a common thing amongst the non stem people. However, if you say "I don't know shit about Dante" you'll be seen as ignorant (rightfully so, imho). I don't think the guilt is on the people saying they can't understand math, because they probably are right in that they have troubles with simple maths. The school system still lays on the fascist philosopher Gentile. However, I don't think that stem is inherently less apt at creating citizens than humanities. For some things required today to be a decent citizen, a bit of stem knowledge is required, let alone if you want do dwelve into politics choices. Most engineers I know are pro nuclear. Amongst non engineers, this support is way less present. If I try to talk to someone about digital privacy, chances are nobody is gonna be interested about it except for a few stem people. And yet these are all things that are actual topics in the public discourse. Stem stem stem isn't inherently bad in itself. It's bad if you go stem stem stem and you think you are superior, but I don't think it's bad in itself. I think I've mad a bunch of different arguments and some might be a bit hard to understand, feel free to ask for clarifications
  - te_chris 2y ago
    I agree, studying STEM doesn't exclude becoming a balanced person. Politcians tinkering with the education system and killing humanities and arts departments because they don't make coders makes it harder to create a balanced society. The irony of LLMs is that the sorts of modes of thinking taught by art and the humanities are going to be more valuable as we need to evaluate and work with AI and agents. Science and engineering will remain valuable too! But that isn't what's being questioned by these midwit business graduates we call leaders.
  - gus_massa 2y ago
    One of the problems is that people may have a very shallow knowdledge of Dante (or whoever is the most famous writter in their country) and still claim they know the subject. What is the question about Dante equivalent to "*Solve x+y=10, x-y=4." ?
- newsclues 2y ago
  have you noticed the trend to turn STEM into STEAM by adding Art? https://artsintegration.com/what-is-steam-education-in-k-12-schools/ https://artsintegration.com/what-is-steam-education-in-k-12-... It's mind boggling that art was crammed in. Ruled by midwits.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    I mean the artist-to-webdesigner or author-to-content-writer pipeline is pretty well known.
    - newsclues 2y ago
      Why aren’t arts schools and programs teaching math to the arts students then?
      - datadrivenangel 2y ago
        The good ones do. Art students don't like it though.
  - Yizahi 2y ago
    I propose calling the actual curriculum in this case - "vapor" :)
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  STEM / college has been pushed for years by several western countries (I can only speak for those) but there's now a mismatch with e.g. college graduates working in underpaid (relative to the promised wages and debts they put them in) dead-end jobs, and an over-reliance on immigrants to do the jobs that people find beneath themselves (or: jobs that employers don't even want to pay minimum wage for)
ben_w 2y ago
> basic computer science, economics, political science, and security fundamentals are needed Can you define "basic" for each of these things? The introductory classes in my (computer science then software engineering) degree were all things I'd picked up from Osborne books before I hit puberty, is that standard sufficient for all the other fields?
- Yizahi 2y ago
  I would define basic as at least knowing that I don't know some topic and how to type in google "what is ...?" or "how to ...?". The amount of people outright refusing to do this simple step is honestly frightening. Knowledge is forgotten when it is not used long term, and it is fine. But we need to acknowledge it and understand where to start getting it if a need arises.
paulcole 2y ago
My brother has none of those things, owns and runs a blue collar business and is married. One person’s NPC is another person’s thriving.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  NPC is such a stupid term, it just underlines the us-vs-them attitude. "no I am a Free Thinker, these other people are NPCs!" Yet, a healthy society is built on the majority of people being content with not being unique. Get a fulltime job, house, marry, have 2+ kids, pay your dues and mortgage, don't do crime, retire, ????, profit. For society anyway. But this boring generic middle-class all-american suburb lifestyle seems to be unreachable for millennials and younger nowadays because someone both pulled up the ladder and increased the barrier to entry to earn enough for a simple lifestyle like that. But if you work three jobs, sleep in your car and simp on the internet, MAYBE a billionaire will take pity on you.
heresie-dabord 2y ago
> intellectual pursuits are looked down upon (perhaps by design) Collective bargaining and knowledge of labour history are definitely discouraged by design.

te_chris 2y ago

Not least by the idiots in power saying STEM STEM STEM and defunding the departments that provide context to the world.

amarcheschi 2y ago
I had a similar argument this morning with friends. Italy has a strong humanities imprinting in its society and school programs, and math/physics are usually taught in a horrible way, with the end result that people saying "I can't do math ahahah" are quite a common thing amongst the non stem people. However, if you say "I don't know shit about Dante" you'll be seen as ignorant (rightfully so, imho). I don't think the guilt is on the people saying they can't understand math, because they probably are right in that they have troubles with simple maths. The school system still lays on the fascist philosopher Gentile. However, I don't think that stem is inherently less apt at creating citizens than humanities. For some things required today to be a decent citizen, a bit of stem knowledge is required, let alone if you want do dwelve into politics choices. Most engineers I know are pro nuclear. Amongst non engineers, this support is way less present. If I try to talk to someone about digital privacy, chances are nobody is gonna be interested about it except for a few stem people. And yet these are all things that are actual topics in the public discourse. Stem stem stem isn't inherently bad in itself. It's bad if you go stem stem stem and you think you are superior, but I don't think it's bad in itself. I think I've mad a bunch of different arguments and some might be a bit hard to understand, feel free to ask for clarifications
- te_chris 2y ago
  I agree, studying STEM doesn't exclude becoming a balanced person. Politcians tinkering with the education system and killing humanities and arts departments because they don't make coders makes it harder to create a balanced society. The irony of LLMs is that the sorts of modes of thinking taught by art and the humanities are going to be more valuable as we need to evaluate and work with AI and agents. Science and engineering will remain valuable too! But that isn't what's being questioned by these midwit business graduates we call leaders.
- gus_massa 2y ago
  One of the problems is that people may have a very shallow knowdledge of Dante (or whoever is the most famous writter in their country) and still claim they know the subject. What is the question about Dante equivalent to "*Solve x+y=10, x-y=4." ?
newsclues 2y ago
have you noticed the trend to turn STEM into STEAM by adding Art? https://artsintegration.com/what-is-steam-education-in-k-12-schools/ https://artsintegration.com/what-is-steam-education-in-k-12-... It's mind boggling that art was crammed in. Ruled by midwits.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I mean the artist-to-webdesigner or author-to-content-writer pipeline is pretty well known.
  - newsclues 2y ago
    Why aren’t arts schools and programs teaching math to the arts students then?
    - datadrivenangel 2y ago
      The good ones do. Art students don't like it though.
- Yizahi 2y ago
  I propose calling the actual curriculum in this case - "vapor" :)
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
STEM / college has been pushed for years by several western countries (I can only speak for those) but there's now a mismatch with e.g. college graduates working in underpaid (relative to the promised wages and debts they put them in) dead-end jobs, and an over-reliance on immigrants to do the jobs that people find beneath themselves (or: jobs that employers don't even want to pay minimum wage for)

ben_w 2y ago

> basic computer science, economics, political science, and security fundamentals are needed Can you define "basic" for each of these things? The introductory classes in my (computer science then software engineering) degree were all things I'd picked up from Osborne books before I hit puberty, is that standard sufficient for all the other fields?

Yizahi 2y ago
I would define basic as at least knowing that I don't know some topic and how to type in google "what is ...?" or "how to ...?". The amount of people outright refusing to do this simple step is honestly frightening. Knowledge is forgotten when it is not used long term, and it is fine. But we need to acknowledge it and understand where to start getting it if a need arises.

paulcole 2y ago

My brother has none of those things, owns and runs a blue collar business and is married. One person’s NPC is another person’s thriving.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
NPC is such a stupid term, it just underlines the us-vs-them attitude. "no I am a Free Thinker, these other people are NPCs!" Yet, a healthy society is built on the majority of people being content with not being unique. Get a fulltime job, house, marry, have 2+ kids, pay your dues and mortgage, don't do crime, retire, ????, profit. For society anyway. But this boring generic middle-class all-american suburb lifestyle seems to be unreachable for millennials and younger nowadays because someone both pulled up the ladder and increased the barrier to entry to earn enough for a simple lifestyle like that. But if you work three jobs, sleep in your car and simp on the internet, MAYBE a billionaire will take pity on you.

heresie-dabord 2y ago

> intellectual pursuits are looked down upon (perhaps by design) Collective bargaining and knowledge of labour history are definitely discouraged by design.