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> excessive safety features Well your average electrical wiring will live on for 50 years or more. The German electricity subreddit routinely has horror shows

> excessive safety features Well your average electrical wiring will live on for 50 years or more. The German electricity subreddit routinely has horror shows dating from shortly after WW2, sometimes even from before that, that are still in service. That means whatever you "save" money on now will haunt you and reduce your home's safety needlessly for decades. As for tamper resistant outlets and surge protection, these things aren't that much more expensive - (Schneider Electric ones are 1€ more expensive in the tamper-resistant variant, but admittedly that's Germany and not the US), and surge protection adds about 700€ in material costs for a three-tier protection. The only thing in your list that is really expensive are the AFDDs, daaaamn they are expensive, but so worth the money.

potato3732842 2y ago
It's not about the money. It's about the hassle of having stuff that represents a usefulness and longevity downgrade over what it replaced.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  What about these is a downgrade?! Surge protection remains useful until it triggers due to a surge, and a non-protected home in contrast would just have a lot of the devices inside it fried. AFDDs may not live as long as a "normal" RCD but replacing them isn't that big of a deal compared to the fire risk it prevents - about 1/3 of all residential fires are due to faulty electrical stuff. The only thing I can see as annoying are protected outlets, but hey... a slight annoyance compared to a child getting an electric shock, a small price to pay.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    Brushed motors routinely trip arc fault breakers, it'a a fundamental problem with them that can't be fixed because brushes will always arc a bit. Normal breakers DGAF. Arc fault and GFI breakers have a way higher DOA and crib death rate than conventional breakers. The other comment addressed the tamper resistant outlets but additionally the outlets themselves don't last as long because they get used more roughly than non-tamper resistant ones.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Brushed motors routinely trip arc fault breakers, it'a a fundamental problem with them that can't be fixed because brushes will always arc a bit What kind of device do normal households use that's still using brushed motors directly attached to mains?! It used to be power drills and vacuums, but it's been ages since I last saw one. Maybe power tools for shops and farms, okay, but in that case just leave that one circuit secured with a plain RCD breaker and keep the rest with AFDDs. > Arc fault and GFI breakers have a way higher DOA and crib death rate than conventional breakers. RCDs of ye olde days aka 70s, yes, they tend to get more sensitive as they age for some reason, but modern RCDs are rare to see DOA.
      - mindslight 2y ago
        Where have your corded vacuums gone? Or have European ones really moved past using universal motors and onto brushless motors with a driver? I know cordless ones have taken off and they're great for small jobs, but I can't imagine relying on one for thorough cleanups. Corded power tools still exist and it's nice to be able to plug them into any receptacle where you may be working, but I get that it's a tradeoff you just have to do a little more to work around. I do hate the issue of having more hidden proprietary software blobs though. One of the reasons I've put off upgrading to AFCIs is that it feels like I've got to really research the differences between brands before I commit by buying into a specific style of panel.
- mindslight 2y ago
  Yeah, "tamper resistant" receptacles are utter trash that just ends up damaging plugs, two prong plugs especially. I had to suffer these in an apartment for a while. I will never subject myself to them. If the code body was looking for problems in need of solving, they should have banned all of the janky residential/builder grade $1 receptacles instead. AFCI (and increasing scope of GFCI) I think has some merit, but there are a lot of annoying aspects to them. As well as some absolute boneheaded implications of the code - like it would be utterly stupid to put a GFCI ahead of a sump pump (at least without some kind of active monitoring that would alert you if it tripped).
  - quickthrowman 2y ago
    > If the code body was looking for problems in need of solving, they should have banned all of the janky residential/builder grade $1 receptacles instead. Absolutely, those should not exist. I buy commercial spec grade (Hubbell CR20 or equal) whenever I replace a receptacle in my house, they are ~$3 or so. If you want the ‘best’, Hubbell HBL5362 is the ticket, very well built with a one piece brass grounding strap, I can get them for under $10, but you need to go to a supply house or Grainger to get this one. > like it would be utterly stupid to put a GFCI ahead of a sump pump (at least without some kind of active monitoring that would alert you if it tripped). This was actually added to the NEC in 2020, any 120V sump pump that draws 60A or less requires GFCI protection, even if its cord and plug. You could rig up monitoring with a current switch, normally open relay, and notification device. Install the current switch around the load side of the GFCI breaker feeding the sump pump that is wired to the control coil of a normally open relay and wire up a horn, strobe, ESP32 or whatever you want to use as a notification device to the relay output. When the GFCI breaker trips, the current switch will close the relay and power up the notification device. If you don’t want to rig it up yourself, there are sump pump monitoring kits with text/email notifications, etc. Or you can avoid it altogether by installing a 240V sump, no GFCI needed.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      I'm with you on the Hubbell's. FWIW Grainger has created a consumer-targeted website called Zoro that's actually become one of my go-to's for home improvement stuff. Although often times I have to spec things by looking through manufacturer's catalogs because their parametric search still sucks. As for the sump pump issue, I avoid it all together by not using GFCI for mere basement outlets. I live in a state where homeowner work is legal, inspectors actively do not want to inspect it, and following the NEC is legally sufficient but not necessary. Some monitoring is on the table eventually, but will include measuring current consumption to see how often the pump is running.

potato3732842 2y ago

It's not about the money. It's about the hassle of having stuff that represents a usefulness and longevity downgrade over what it replaced.

mschuster91 2y ago
What about these is a downgrade?! Surge protection remains useful until it triggers due to a surge, and a non-protected home in contrast would just have a lot of the devices inside it fried. AFDDs may not live as long as a "normal" RCD but replacing them isn't that big of a deal compared to the fire risk it prevents - about 1/3 of all residential fires are due to faulty electrical stuff. The only thing I can see as annoying are protected outlets, but hey... a slight annoyance compared to a child getting an electric shock, a small price to pay.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Brushed motors routinely trip arc fault breakers, it'a a fundamental problem with them that can't be fixed because brushes will always arc a bit. Normal breakers DGAF. Arc fault and GFI breakers have a way higher DOA and crib death rate than conventional breakers. The other comment addressed the tamper resistant outlets but additionally the outlets themselves don't last as long because they get used more roughly than non-tamper resistant ones.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Brushed motors routinely trip arc fault breakers, it'a a fundamental problem with them that can't be fixed because brushes will always arc a bit What kind of device do normal households use that's still using brushed motors directly attached to mains?! It used to be power drills and vacuums, but it's been ages since I last saw one. Maybe power tools for shops and farms, okay, but in that case just leave that one circuit secured with a plain RCD breaker and keep the rest with AFDDs. > Arc fault and GFI breakers have a way higher DOA and crib death rate than conventional breakers. RCDs of ye olde days aka 70s, yes, they tend to get more sensitive as they age for some reason, but modern RCDs are rare to see DOA.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      Where have your corded vacuums gone? Or have European ones really moved past using universal motors and onto brushless motors with a driver? I know cordless ones have taken off and they're great for small jobs, but I can't imagine relying on one for thorough cleanups. Corded power tools still exist and it's nice to be able to plug them into any receptacle where you may be working, but I get that it's a tradeoff you just have to do a little more to work around. I do hate the issue of having more hidden proprietary software blobs though. One of the reasons I've put off upgrading to AFCIs is that it feels like I've got to really research the differences between brands before I commit by buying into a specific style of panel.
mindslight 2y ago
Yeah, "tamper resistant" receptacles are utter trash that just ends up damaging plugs, two prong plugs especially. I had to suffer these in an apartment for a while. I will never subject myself to them. If the code body was looking for problems in need of solving, they should have banned all of the janky residential/builder grade $1 receptacles instead. AFCI (and increasing scope of GFCI) I think has some merit, but there are a lot of annoying aspects to them. As well as some absolute boneheaded implications of the code - like it would be utterly stupid to put a GFCI ahead of a sump pump (at least without some kind of active monitoring that would alert you if it tripped).
- quickthrowman 2y ago
  > If the code body was looking for problems in need of solving, they should have banned all of the janky residential/builder grade $1 receptacles instead. Absolutely, those should not exist. I buy commercial spec grade (Hubbell CR20 or equal) whenever I replace a receptacle in my house, they are ~$3 or so. If you want the ‘best’, Hubbell HBL5362 is the ticket, very well built with a one piece brass grounding strap, I can get them for under $10, but you need to go to a supply house or Grainger to get this one. > like it would be utterly stupid to put a GFCI ahead of a sump pump (at least without some kind of active monitoring that would alert you if it tripped). This was actually added to the NEC in 2020, any 120V sump pump that draws 60A or less requires GFCI protection, even if its cord and plug. You could rig up monitoring with a current switch, normally open relay, and notification device. Install the current switch around the load side of the GFCI breaker feeding the sump pump that is wired to the control coil of a normally open relay and wire up a horn, strobe, ESP32 or whatever you want to use as a notification device to the relay output. When the GFCI breaker trips, the current switch will close the relay and power up the notification device. If you don’t want to rig it up yourself, there are sump pump monitoring kits with text/email notifications, etc. Or you can avoid it altogether by installing a 240V sump, no GFCI needed.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    I'm with you on the Hubbell's. FWIW Grainger has created a consumer-targeted website called Zoro that's actually become one of my go-to's for home improvement stuff. Although often times I have to spec things by looking through manufacturer's catalogs because their parametric search still sucks. As for the sump pump issue, I avoid it all together by not using GFCI for mere basement outlets. I live in a state where homeowner work is legal, inspectors actively do not want to inspect it, and following the NEC is legally sufficient but not necessary. Some monitoring is on the table eventually, but will include measuring current consumption to see how often the pump is running.