4 ms·

It would be interesting to see if he's banking on jury nullification being within the Overton window...

by whaleofatw2022 2y ago

MichaelZuo 2y ago
Or maybe he’s just not that smart… it’s pretty much expected some number will lose their marbles and become semi-deranged or fully deranged every year. I’d guess at least 1 in ten thousand per annum. Which would equate to hundreds of newly deranged developers per year in the US.
_heimdall 2y ago
Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  I don't think he was banking on that, but I thought it interesting that posts about jury nullification were all over the front page on Reddit today, e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1haimhk/til_that_a_jury_does_not_have_to_convict_a_guilty/ https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1haimhk/til_... and https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/1haejf4/new_yorkers_need_to_look_up_jury_nullification/ https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/1haejf4...
  - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
    maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Usually it's phrased differently but it's on the form.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is It’s typically asked about. If you know about it and lie, that’s perjury.
      - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        It's sometimes asked about whether you'd follow the evidence - people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is. As for "lying" here, it's an interesting metaphysical question. Because you're not lying (or telling the truth) about some observable event, it's simply your own state of mind. If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise Nullification needs to be unanimous. You'd get in trouble when pitching nullification to your fellow jurors. (Or at the very least, have a mistrial declared.) > people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire. (Hell, just ask innocently about it.)
        hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        > Nullification needs to be unanimous. Nullification absolutely does not need to be unanimous, and it rarely is. All it takes is one juror force a mistrial (and another if it is retried, etc.) Sure, the prosecutor would likely retry, but again, it just takes one juror out of twelve to cause a mistrial, and the vast majority of prosecutors don't prosecute indefinitely. > If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire. No shit, so don't mention it.
        2y ago
    - Hamuko 2y ago
      One weird trick to avoid jury duty for the rest of your life?
      - exe34 2y ago
        that and share the statistics on eye witness testimony reliability.
        _heimdall 2y ago
        And if that doesn't come up, mention that your favorite movie is My Cousin Vinny.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  HN few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42332688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42332688
- grogenaut 2y ago
  In the one case I sat on the jury for the judge told us that we had to follow their directions exactly as to how to interpret the law when making a sentence. We were informed we not allowed to choose a lighter charge (options were misdemeanor assault, assault and aggravated assault). Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered and it was settled in an hour, but it was interesting. But I had been warned by multiple lawyer friends this might happen. Even more wasteful as this was the 3rd strike so the difference between assault and aggravated was 25 or 26 years, aka no difference. And the defendant had pleaded down already. Finally it was obvious it wasn't aggravated for several reasons and the prosecution was just fishing for convictions. Basically took 2 extra days of everyone's time fishing for sentence elevations.
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    > Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered Why is that? Was it just the sentencing phase?
    - grogenaut 2y ago
      The jury ended up giving them assault, not aggrivated. Aggrivated required pre-mediatation. But the guy was drunk and did something dumb and quick. It wasn't pre-meditated. The judge was essentially telling us it had to be aggrivated, but also quoted the law. The jury voted for non-aggrivated. But it was 3 strikes so he got the same sentence (the full boat) no matter if he was aggrivated or non-aggrivated. how do I know this? the defense attorney and the prosecutor both went to bars in my neighborhood. I got both of them drinks and asked them for the back story on the case.
- tiahura 2y ago
  Do you have a cite for it being legal for jurors to ignore jury instructions and orders from the Court? Is it also legal for jurors to ignore orders not to discuss the case, post about deliberations on Facebook, or decide the case based on race?
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I don't unfortunately, that would be buried somewhere in federal codes. Orders and instructions are different though. An official order by a judge may fall under contempt of court if you don't comply. Instructions are more procedural and about a judge running the process of the trial. For deliberation, that also generally means instructions that really just help guide a jury of people who may not have done it before and aren't sure of the process or general expectations.
    - tiahura 2y ago
      My question was rhetorical. Instructions ARE an order. Willful failure to comply is contempt. The issue is that proving why a juror voted a certain way is kind of tough. The beautiful part is that this is a feature, not a bug.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        A juror can't be punished for their decision, ever. It doesn't matter whether a juror keeps their reasoning a secret or not. Its interesting you meant that rhetorically, your premise is wrong in my opinion. If you want to distinguish between an instruction and an order I'd think it has to be based on how it can be enforced. An instruction can't be enforced by a judge, for example they can instruct you to only consider what was presented but they can't punish you if you disobey that.
        tiahura 2y ago
        Perhaps the jurisdiction where you practice is different than the ones I do? In federal court, and the states I'm familiar with, the judge certainly can punish you for disobeying instructions. You take an oath, and the judge orders you, to follow the instructions.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that. Also, IIRC, the court system is pretty against it. The judge won't instruct the jury on it and I very much doubt he'd let the defense attorney bring it up to the jury either.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Courts can be against it all they want, it is still legal and well within a juror's rights. I'd never expect a judge or attorney to raise it as an option, but at the end of the day it is. Jury selection throws a wrench in the system, lawyers have a chance to ask questions under oath and get rid of jurors for most any reason. As i understand it, its pretty common for them to try to ferret out anyone that may go the nullification route.
nozzlegear 2y ago
The judge, prosecution and defense get to vet each juror by asking them about their beliefs and biases. They can reject jurors if they believe the juror is unable to hear a case without being impartial. Jurors (often) won't be told the details of the case they'll be hearing while they're being vetted, only the basic details (e.g. defendant is a white male accused of murdering another white male). In extremely high profile cases like the ones featuring Donald Trump, courts focus on selecting jurors who can remain fair and impartial despite their knowledge of the case or their own personal opinions. They'll go through extensive vetting which can include written questionnaires, interviews, oral questioning about their media consumption, their political beliefs and potential biases, and so on.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  They don't actually verify any of this and you can just lie. One of the chauvin jurors lied about being an activist.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    That sounds more like a failure of the prosecution in the Chauvin trial, rather than an assumption we can make about all trials.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Failure of the prosecution? No, they have qualified immunity.
tomcam 2y ago
It’s not. American judges, generally speaking, hate jury nullification with the strength of a thousand suns. They are petty little tyrants.
- bayarearefugee 2y ago
  Judges generally hate it but there's also nothing they can do about it if it happens. That said its a very far leap to assume (either as the suspect or as a third party) that because this suspect has a lot of online sympathy that that will translate to a jury both willing and knowledgeable enough to nullify. Certainly wouldn't bet my life or freedom on that myself. Personally I lean toward doubting that getting caught was part of some master plan. People have this binary view of things where he's either got to be a criminal mastermind who thought of everything or a complete fool, and the reality is probably that he's a better than average premeditated murderer (given all of what is stacked against him) who still got caught due to a combination of bad luck and being a little bit careless. Considering how extensive the current surveillance state is he got closer to getting away with it than the vast majority of people would have, but also combined that with some stupid but perfectly naturally human oversights.

It would be interesting to see if he's banking on jury nullification being within the Overton window...

Or maybe he’s just not that smart… it’s pretty much expected some number will lose their marbles and become semi-deranged or fully deranged every year. I’d guess at least 1 in ten thousand per annum. Which would equate to hundreds of newly deranged developers per year in the US.

_heimdall 2y ago

Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
I don't think he was banking on that, but I thought it interesting that posts about jury nullification were all over the front page on Reddit today, e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1haimhk/til_that_a_jury_does_not_have_to_convict_a_guilty/ https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1haimhk/til_... and https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/1haejf4/new_yorkers_need_to_look_up_jury_nullification/ https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/1haejf4...
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Usually it's phrased differently but it's on the form.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is It’s typically asked about. If you know about it and lie, that’s perjury.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      It's sometimes asked about whether you'd follow the evidence - people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is. As for "lying" here, it's an interesting metaphysical question. Because you're not lying (or telling the truth) about some observable event, it's simply your own state of mind. If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise Nullification needs to be unanimous. You'd get in trouble when pitching nullification to your fellow jurors. (Or at the very least, have a mistrial declared.) > people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire. (Hell, just ask innocently about it.)
        hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        > Nullification needs to be unanimous. Nullification absolutely does not need to be unanimous, and it rarely is. All it takes is one juror force a mistrial (and another if it is retried, etc.) Sure, the prosecutor would likely retry, but again, it just takes one juror out of twelve to cause a mistrial, and the vast majority of prosecutors don't prosecute indefinitely. > If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire. No shit, so don't mention it.
        2y ago
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    One weird trick to avoid jury duty for the rest of your life?
    - exe34 2y ago
      that and share the statistics on eye witness testimony reliability.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        And if that doesn't come up, mention that your favorite movie is My Cousin Vinny.
bdangubic 2y ago
HN few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42332688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42332688
grogenaut 2y ago
In the one case I sat on the jury for the judge told us that we had to follow their directions exactly as to how to interpret the law when making a sentence. We were informed we not allowed to choose a lighter charge (options were misdemeanor assault, assault and aggravated assault). Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered and it was settled in an hour, but it was interesting. But I had been warned by multiple lawyer friends this might happen. Even more wasteful as this was the 3rd strike so the difference between assault and aggravated was 25 or 26 years, aka no difference. And the defendant had pleaded down already. Finally it was obvious it wasn't aggravated for several reasons and the prosecution was just fishing for convictions. Basically took 2 extra days of everyone's time fishing for sentence elevations.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  > Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered Why is that? Was it just the sentencing phase?
  - grogenaut 2y ago
    The jury ended up giving them assault, not aggrivated. Aggrivated required pre-mediatation. But the guy was drunk and did something dumb and quick. It wasn't pre-meditated. The judge was essentially telling us it had to be aggrivated, but also quoted the law. The jury voted for non-aggrivated. But it was 3 strikes so he got the same sentence (the full boat) no matter if he was aggrivated or non-aggrivated. how do I know this? the defense attorney and the prosecutor both went to bars in my neighborhood. I got both of them drinks and asked them for the back story on the case.
tiahura 2y ago
Do you have a cite for it being legal for jurors to ignore jury instructions and orders from the Court? Is it also legal for jurors to ignore orders not to discuss the case, post about deliberations on Facebook, or decide the case based on race?
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I don't unfortunately, that would be buried somewhere in federal codes. Orders and instructions are different though. An official order by a judge may fall under contempt of court if you don't comply. Instructions are more procedural and about a judge running the process of the trial. For deliberation, that also generally means instructions that really just help guide a jury of people who may not have done it before and aren't sure of the process or general expectations.
  - tiahura 2y ago
    My question was rhetorical. Instructions ARE an order. Willful failure to comply is contempt. The issue is that proving why a juror voted a certain way is kind of tough. The beautiful part is that this is a feature, not a bug.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      A juror can't be punished for their decision, ever. It doesn't matter whether a juror keeps their reasoning a secret or not. Its interesting you meant that rhetorically, your premise is wrong in my opinion. If you want to distinguish between an instruction and an order I'd think it has to be based on how it can be enforced. An instruction can't be enforced by a judge, for example they can instruct you to only consider what was presented but they can't punish you if you disobey that.
      - tiahura 2y ago
        Perhaps the jurisdiction where you practice is different than the ones I do? In federal court, and the states I'm familiar with, the judge certainly can punish you for disobeying instructions. You take an oath, and the judge orders you, to follow the instructions.
tivert 2y ago
> Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that. Also, IIRC, the court system is pretty against it. The judge won't instruct the jury on it and I very much doubt he'd let the defense attorney bring it up to the jury either.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Courts can be against it all they want, it is still legal and well within a juror's rights. I'd never expect a judge or attorney to raise it as an option, but at the end of the day it is. Jury selection throws a wrench in the system, lawyers have a chance to ask questions under oath and get rid of jurors for most any reason. As i understand it, its pretty common for them to try to ferret out anyone that may go the nullification route.

nozzlegear 2y ago

The judge, prosecution and defense get to vet each juror by asking them about their beliefs and biases. They can reject jurors if they believe the juror is unable to hear a case without being impartial. Jurors (often) won't be told the details of the case they'll be hearing while they're being vetted, only the basic details (e.g. defendant is a white male accused of murdering another white male). In extremely high profile cases like the ones featuring Donald Trump, courts focus on selecting jurors who can remain fair and impartial despite their knowledge of the case or their own personal opinions. They'll go through extensive vetting which can include written questionnaires, interviews, oral questioning about their media consumption, their political beliefs and potential biases, and so on.

throwaway48476 2y ago
They don't actually verify any of this and you can just lie. One of the chauvin jurors lied about being an activist.
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  That sounds more like a failure of the prosecution in the Chauvin trial, rather than an assumption we can make about all trials.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Failure of the prosecution? No, they have qualified immunity.

tomcam 2y ago

It’s not. American judges, generally speaking, hate jury nullification with the strength of a thousand suns. They are petty little tyrants.

bayarearefugee 2y ago
Judges generally hate it but there's also nothing they can do about it if it happens. That said its a very far leap to assume (either as the suspect or as a third party) that because this suspect has a lot of online sympathy that that will translate to a jury both willing and knowledgeable enough to nullify. Certainly wouldn't bet my life or freedom on that myself. Personally I lean toward doubting that getting caught was part of some master plan. People have this binary view of things where he's either got to be a criminal mastermind who thought of everything or a complete fool, and the reality is probably that he's a better than average premeditated murderer (given all of what is stacked against him) who still got caught due to a combination of bad luck and being a little bit careless. Considering how extensive the current surveillance state is he got closer to getting away with it than the vast majority of people would have, but also combined that with some stupid but perfectly naturally human oversights.