8 ms·

>This is not the world you live in. [A world where people get debanked for political reasons.] I know quite a few people, and entities affected by it in Europe

>This is not the world you live in. [A world where people get debanked for political reasons.] I know quite a few people, and entities affected by it in Europe. Some of them even personally, individual accounts, not just their companies and organizations. I would elaborate, except I suspect that will be counter productive. Please read site guidelines. Let's agree to disagree. The idea that the debanking of individuals on political basis has only happened in Canada is wrong. Furthermore, this also only happens to, let's say one side of the political dialogue.

do_not_redeem 2y ago
That blog has a lot of choice quotes along the same lines. Another favorite: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/money-laundering-and-aml-compliance/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/money-laundering-and-... > This [KYC/AML] will affect the typical user of the financial system precisely zero times during their lives. I've been affected by this nonsense, and so have friends and family. Quite inconvenient when you're trying to buy a house and trying to keep things moving on time. I may not be "typical" but my mother certainly is. I can tell that patio11 is highly invested in the finance industry, not wanting to burn bridges, and I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective, but it's just not the case. It reminds me of the people inside Google working on their auto-banning systems who won't admit that it doesn't always work perfectly.
- otterley 2y ago
  Per the article: "Debanking will also not infrequently swiftly cascade to accounts in the same household, regardless of title (non-specialists can round this to “name on the account”; industry can’t). Banks institutionally consider those accounts in the same household to be highly likely to be under common control, regardless of what paperwork, account holders, or politically influential subcultures believe."
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    My parents live 1000 miles away and we haven't been in the same household for 20 years. Either our troubles were independent and uncorrelated events, or banks are crawling through people's family trees like they're 23andMe. Maybe my cousin who I haven't seen since we were kids did something shady and tainted our whole family tree in the eyes of the banks, who knows anymore.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > or banks are crawling through people's family trees I work in securities. Our KYC screens aren’t as sophisticated as the banks’. We absolutely see family relations. (They’re typically gleaned from public records and social media. It's unfortunately not uncommon for kids to open accounts in parents' names and vice versa, even after a long time.)
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        this 100%
      - aitchnyu 2y ago
        Umm, what does social media reveal?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > what does social media reveal? “Family relations.”
    - watwut 2y ago
      Of course they are crawling through people's family trees. They have no idea who talks to who, but see formal relationships.
- broken-kebab 2y ago
  Same here. I think one must be occupying very nice couch in a nice house in a 1-tier country to say that AML/KYC doesn't affect 'typical' users
- pjc50 2y ago
  If people have actually read the article, they will have spotted the bits where patio11 himself has been adversely affected by this at least twice! > I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective I don't think the article is arguing that at all. It's describing the "system", not endorsing it (and explicitly complaining about it in several places).
- graemep 2y ago
  If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common. British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad. Difficult if you have assets or a pension in the UK but live abroad. As you say, it makes it very hard for people who move around. There are definitely political biases in closing bank accounts in the UK, and many cases of accounts being closed because banks did not like someone's politics. Not even fringe political views, associations with the previous government's part has caused problems in some cases, and definitely association with smaller but significant parties. People also avoid taking on jobs that might make them "politically exposed persons" because the rules are too broad, and that (although it affects only a few people) does a great deal of damage because it reduces the number of people from outside in organisations, which worsens governance and corruption.
  - Dracophoenix 2y ago
    > If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common. British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad. How are their so many non-dom retirees if that's the case? They have to have some sort of income.
    - jdietrich 2y ago
      As patio11 made abundantly clear in his article, banks are not homogeneous in their preferred customers, their ability to serve specific needs or their tolerance for risk. It may well be true that some banks don't like non-resident customers, but many banks offer products specifically tailored for these customers. https://www.expat.hsbc.com/international-banking/products/bank-account/ https://www.expat.hsbc.com/international-banking/products/ba... https://www.santanderinternational.co.uk/international/products/current-account/ https://www.santanderinternational.co.uk/international/produ...
      - graemep 2y ago
        Not any non-resident customers. You need to deposit £75k or more with them or have an income or over £100k. i.e. you need to be far better than a British resident customer to cover the extra KYC costs (its less automated if you are abroad). People have had accounts closed: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/banking/barclays-to-debank-all-british-expats/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/banking/barclays-to-debank...
Dalewyn 2y ago
Also happening in Japan. Quite a number of big-name vendors like DMM, DLsite, and others are getting heavy pressure from Visa and Mastercard to censor certain merchandise for no justifiable reason (as in no legal basis) and in some cases have been blacklisted outright. The Japanese response, and this is after placating the first round of censor demands, has been to reverse-blacklist Visa and Mastercard because Japan realized that giving an inch only means they will then demand a mile, then a league, and so on.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Classic HN bullshit: > censor certain merchandise Zero evidence provided. Zero examples provided.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    https://x.com/fantia_jp/status/1792811477256343764 https://x.com/fantia_jp/status/1792811477256343764 The following links are all NSFW because they are from Sankaku Complex, you have been warned: https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/11/10/japanese-bookstore-chain-melonbooks-next-to-drop-visa-mastercard-support/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/11/10/japanese-bookstor... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/19/japanese-politicians-question-visa-regarding-financial-censorship/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/19/japanese-politici... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/03/tora-no-ana-allegedly-bending-the-knee-to-western-credit-card-companies/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/03/tora-no-ana-alleg... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/11/tora-no-ana-cuts-visa-mastercard-right-before-comiket/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/11/tora-no-ana-cuts-... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/05/11/japanese-video-site-niconico-suspends-visa-card-payments/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/05/11/japanese-video-si... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2023/11/14/japanese-netizens-waking-up-to-perils-of-foreign-credit-card-reliance/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2023/11/14/japanese-netizens... You may now crawl back to your throwaway den from whence you came.
    - CyberDildonics 2y ago
      You may now crawl back to your throwaway den from whence you came. Their account is actually older than yours.
WinstonSmith84 2y ago
The middle class and below live paycheck to paycheck so that's an issue they don't have. I suppose the author refers to this (ironically or not) But debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash, probably from the higher middle class until the ~1% .. as for the super wealthy, this class enjoys offshore private banking, has assets split into dozens of accounts and is mostly unbothered by AML.
- epolanski 2y ago
  You need to provide data behind your claim that debanking is so widespread as to use the word almost everybody. Never ever heard any person I know being denied banking services, except for some unlucky (were they?) entrepreneur with very shady is-he-laundering-money situations.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    I feel exactly the same. I tire of people on HN talking about their accounts being closed but providing 10% of the relevant information to their case. I have said it before and I will say it again: If your accounts are wrongfully closed, immediately: (1) Visit your your bank in protest and meet with the branch manager and (2) send physical letter of complaint to (a) local branch (b) head office (c) national bank regulator and make it clear you have CC'd all. I bet 99% of legit cases will be reinstated within 30 days.
  - sroussey 2y ago
    Small VCs have this de-banking problem. Their patterns for cash and not conducive to want banks want and large banks will regularly close them down.
- loeg 2y ago
  > debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash I don't think this is true. I know many people with assets and as far as I know, none of them has been debanked. Surely I would know someone who has been debanked if almost everybody with assets has been.
draw_down 2y ago
[dead]
Yeul 2y ago
We live in a society. There were a bunch of pedos in the Netherlands who tried to start a political party to change age of consent. It did not go well for them.
elric 2y ago
I too know of such people in Europe. Including people in perfectly legal industries, and refugees from war torm countries. Banks are a necessary evil, but evil all the same.
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
Very true, happened twice to an acquaintance of mine.

do_not_redeem 2y ago

That blog has a lot of choice quotes along the same lines. Another favorite: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/money-laundering-and-aml-compliance/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/money-laundering-and-... > This [KYC/AML] will affect the typical user of the financial system precisely zero times during their lives. I've been affected by this nonsense, and so have friends and family. Quite inconvenient when you're trying to buy a house and trying to keep things moving on time. I may not be "typical" but my mother certainly is. I can tell that patio11 is highly invested in the finance industry, not wanting to burn bridges, and I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective, but it's just not the case. It reminds me of the people inside Google working on their auto-banning systems who won't admit that it doesn't always work perfectly.

otterley 2y ago
Per the article: "Debanking will also not infrequently swiftly cascade to accounts in the same household, regardless of title (non-specialists can round this to “name on the account”; industry can’t). Banks institutionally consider those accounts in the same household to be highly likely to be under common control, regardless of what paperwork, account holders, or politically influential subcultures believe."
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  My parents live 1000 miles away and we haven't been in the same household for 20 years. Either our troubles were independent and uncorrelated events, or banks are crawling through people's family trees like they're 23andMe. Maybe my cousin who I haven't seen since we were kids did something shady and tainted our whole family tree in the eyes of the banks, who knows anymore.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > or banks are crawling through people's family trees I work in securities. Our KYC screens aren’t as sophisticated as the banks’. We absolutely see family relations. (They’re typically gleaned from public records and social media. It's unfortunately not uncommon for kids to open accounts in parents' names and vice versa, even after a long time.)
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      this 100%
    - aitchnyu 2y ago
      Umm, what does social media reveal?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > what does social media reveal? “Family relations.”
  - watwut 2y ago
    Of course they are crawling through people's family trees. They have no idea who talks to who, but see formal relationships.
broken-kebab 2y ago
Same here. I think one must be occupying very nice couch in a nice house in a 1-tier country to say that AML/KYC doesn't affect 'typical' users
pjc50 2y ago
If people have actually read the article, they will have spotted the bits where patio11 himself has been adversely affected by this at least twice! > I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective I don't think the article is arguing that at all. It's describing the "system", not endorsing it (and explicitly complaining about it in several places).
graemep 2y ago
If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common. British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad. Difficult if you have assets or a pension in the UK but live abroad. As you say, it makes it very hard for people who move around. There are definitely political biases in closing bank accounts in the UK, and many cases of accounts being closed because banks did not like someone's politics. Not even fringe political views, associations with the previous government's part has caused problems in some cases, and definitely association with smaller but significant parties. People also avoid taking on jobs that might make them "politically exposed persons" because the rules are too broad, and that (although it affects only a few people) does a great deal of damage because it reduces the number of people from outside in organisations, which worsens governance and corruption.
- Dracophoenix 2y ago
  > If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common. British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad. How are their so many non-dom retirees if that's the case? They have to have some sort of income.
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    As patio11 made abundantly clear in his article, banks are not homogeneous in their preferred customers, their ability to serve specific needs or their tolerance for risk. It may well be true that some banks don't like non-resident customers, but many banks offer products specifically tailored for these customers. https://www.expat.hsbc.com/international-banking/products/bank-account/ https://www.expat.hsbc.com/international-banking/products/ba... https://www.santanderinternational.co.uk/international/products/current-account/ https://www.santanderinternational.co.uk/international/produ...
    - graemep 2y ago
      Not any non-resident customers. You need to deposit £75k or more with them or have an income or over £100k. i.e. you need to be far better than a British resident customer to cover the extra KYC costs (its less automated if you are abroad). People have had accounts closed: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/banking/barclays-to-debank-all-british-expats/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/banking/barclays-to-debank...

Dalewyn 2y ago

Also happening in Japan. Quite a number of big-name vendors like DMM, DLsite, and others are getting heavy pressure from Visa and Mastercard to censor certain merchandise for no justifiable reason (as in no legal basis) and in some cases have been blacklisted outright. The Japanese response, and this is after placating the first round of censor demands, has been to reverse-blacklist Visa and Mastercard because Japan realized that giving an inch only means they will then demand a mile, then a league, and so on.

throwaway2037 2y ago
Classic HN bullshit: > censor certain merchandise Zero evidence provided. Zero examples provided.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  https://x.com/fantia_jp/status/1792811477256343764 https://x.com/fantia_jp/status/1792811477256343764 The following links are all NSFW because they are from Sankaku Complex, you have been warned: https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/11/10/japanese-bookstore-chain-melonbooks-next-to-drop-visa-mastercard-support/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/11/10/japanese-bookstor... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/19/japanese-politicians-question-visa-regarding-financial-censorship/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/19/japanese-politici... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/03/tora-no-ana-allegedly-bending-the-knee-to-western-credit-card-companies/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/03/tora-no-ana-alleg... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/11/tora-no-ana-cuts-visa-mastercard-right-before-comiket/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/08/11/tora-no-ana-cuts-... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/05/11/japanese-video-site-niconico-suspends-visa-card-payments/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2024/05/11/japanese-video-si... https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2023/11/14/japanese-netizens-waking-up-to-perils-of-foreign-credit-card-reliance/ https://news.sankakucomplex.com/2023/11/14/japanese-netizens... You may now crawl back to your throwaway den from whence you came.
  - CyberDildonics 2y ago
    You may now crawl back to your throwaway den from whence you came. Their account is actually older than yours.

WinstonSmith84 2y ago

The middle class and below live paycheck to paycheck so that's an issue they don't have. I suppose the author refers to this (ironically or not) But debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash, probably from the higher middle class until the ~1% .. as for the super wealthy, this class enjoys offshore private banking, has assets split into dozens of accounts and is mostly unbothered by AML.

epolanski 2y ago
You need to provide data behind your claim that debanking is so widespread as to use the word almost everybody. Never ever heard any person I know being denied banking services, except for some unlucky (were they?) entrepreneur with very shady is-he-laundering-money situations.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  I feel exactly the same. I tire of people on HN talking about their accounts being closed but providing 10% of the relevant information to their case. I have said it before and I will say it again: If your accounts are wrongfully closed, immediately: (1) Visit your your bank in protest and meet with the branch manager and (2) send physical letter of complaint to (a) local branch (b) head office (c) national bank regulator and make it clear you have CC'd all. I bet 99% of legit cases will be reinstated within 30 days.
- sroussey 2y ago
  Small VCs have this de-banking problem. Their patterns for cash and not conducive to want banks want and large banks will regularly close them down.
loeg 2y ago
> debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash I don't think this is true. I know many people with assets and as far as I know, none of them has been debanked. Surely I would know someone who has been debanked if almost everybody with assets has been.

draw_down 2y ago

[dead]

Yeul 2y ago

We live in a society. There were a bunch of pedos in the Netherlands who tried to start a political party to change age of consent. It did not go well for them.

elric 2y ago

I too know of such people in Europe. Including people in perfectly legal industries, and refugees from war torm countries. Banks are a necessary evil, but evil all the same.

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

Very true, happened twice to an acquaintance of mine.