3 ms·

Osama bin Laden had a degree in civil engineering. I wonder how mathematicians rank against engineers

rangestransform 2y ago
I remember reading something like this but in relation to elite overproduction, how if you have engineers sitting with their thumbs up their asses instead of working, they will disrupt society in a bad way
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Overproduction theory, whether you believe it or not isn't really about engineers. The idea is that you get a lot of elites which are highly educated and expect high positions in society, but end up bitter because reality falls short. Engineers break with this because in general they are actually quite well compensated. The targets of the theory are essentially people with non-stem post-secondary degrees
  - garrettgrimsley 2y ago
    This doesn't align with the scholarship on the subject. See Gambetta and Hertog https://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/engineers%20of%20jihad.pdf https://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/engineers%20of%20ji...
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Im not saying it is impossible, so I dont see that as some sort of gotcha. From Wikipedia: >Elite overproduction is a concept developed by Peter Turchin that describes the condition of a society that is producing too many potential elite members relative to its ability to absorb them into the power structure.[1][2][3] This, he hypothesizes, is a cause for social instability, as those left out of power feel aggrieved by their relatively low socioeconomic status. Im focusing on the USA, where engineers, STEM, and the like have high social standing, and do relatively well economically. Your "scholarship on the subject" is from 2007 and is from before the term elite overproduction was even coined.
      - datadrivenangel 2y ago
        Engineers are technicians/craftspeople, not elites. They are compensated well much of the time, and respected, which means that many of them have more opportunities to become elites, especially when considering the intelligence that engineering degrees tend to filter/correlate with.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - garrettgrimsley 2y ago
        You hadn't mentioned that your focus was on the USA, but rather a general "The targets of the theory are essentially people with non-stem post-secondary degrees" which is why I provided a paper that directly contradicts your statement. Elite Overproduction is not a US-specific topic, and the paper being from 2007 does nothing to invalidate its findings or lessen its relevance to Elite Overproduction. Funnily enough, I hadn't checked astrange's reference that prompted this discussion, which is Gambetta and Hertog.
roenxi 2y ago
Probably fairly peaceful, intelligence or weirdness aren't at play here. The dangerous ones are those who deal in the practical realities of the world in ways that can effect change - they are more likely to have the means to do something. Engineers and chemists are ones to watch (whoever did the script for Breaking Bad knew his chemist stereotypes).
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  In my mind, the common threads with organize terrorism is utilitarianism and consequentialism. This way of thinking has a big overlap with stem fields based in logic and physics. The perhaps concerning thread socially is the rise of utilitarian and consequentialist morality.
  - tbrownaw 2y ago
    Hm... Widespread adoption of utilitarianism is a net negative for society°, therefore utilitarianism says that promoting utilitarianism is bad? °I guess because it's too easy to make calculation errors that lead to major badness?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mythrwy 2y ago
Maybe mathematicians just theorize about committing violence while engineers lean more towards the application.
- Tryk 2y ago
  Well there was this guy called Ted...

I remember reading something like this but in relation to elite overproduction, how if you have engineers sitting with their thumbs up their asses instead of working, they will disrupt society in a bad way

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Overproduction theory, whether you believe it or not isn't really about engineers. The idea is that you get a lot of elites which are highly educated and expect high positions in society, but end up bitter because reality falls short. Engineers break with this because in general they are actually quite well compensated. The targets of the theory are essentially people with non-stem post-secondary degrees
- garrettgrimsley 2y ago
  This doesn't align with the scholarship on the subject. See Gambetta and Hertog https://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/engineers%20of%20jihad.pdf https://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/engineers%20of%20ji...
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Im not saying it is impossible, so I dont see that as some sort of gotcha. From Wikipedia: >Elite overproduction is a concept developed by Peter Turchin that describes the condition of a society that is producing too many potential elite members relative to its ability to absorb them into the power structure.[1][2][3] This, he hypothesizes, is a cause for social instability, as those left out of power feel aggrieved by their relatively low socioeconomic status. Im focusing on the USA, where engineers, STEM, and the like have high social standing, and do relatively well economically. Your "scholarship on the subject" is from 2007 and is from before the term elite overproduction was even coined.
    - datadrivenangel 2y ago
      Engineers are technicians/craftspeople, not elites. They are compensated well much of the time, and respected, which means that many of them have more opportunities to become elites, especially when considering the intelligence that engineering degrees tend to filter/correlate with.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - garrettgrimsley 2y ago
      You hadn't mentioned that your focus was on the USA, but rather a general "The targets of the theory are essentially people with non-stem post-secondary degrees" which is why I provided a paper that directly contradicts your statement. Elite Overproduction is not a US-specific topic, and the paper being from 2007 does nothing to invalidate its findings or lessen its relevance to Elite Overproduction. Funnily enough, I hadn't checked astrange's reference that prompted this discussion, which is Gambetta and Hertog.

roenxi 2y ago

Probably fairly peaceful, intelligence or weirdness aren't at play here. The dangerous ones are those who deal in the practical realities of the world in ways that can effect change - they are more likely to have the means to do something. Engineers and chemists are ones to watch (whoever did the script for Breaking Bad knew his chemist stereotypes).

s1artibartfast 2y ago
In my mind, the common threads with organize terrorism is utilitarianism and consequentialism. This way of thinking has a big overlap with stem fields based in logic and physics. The perhaps concerning thread socially is the rise of utilitarian and consequentialist morality.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  Hm... Widespread adoption of utilitarianism is a net negative for society°, therefore utilitarianism says that promoting utilitarianism is bad? °I guess because it's too easy to make calculation errors that lead to major badness?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mythrwy 2y ago

Maybe mathematicians just theorize about committing violence while engineers lean more towards the application.

Tryk 2y ago
Well there was this guy called Ted...