5 ms·

With programmers, hackers, computer scientists, systems designers/engineers carrying some of the most privileged skillsets needed for designing and implementing

With programmers, hackers, computer scientists, systems designers/engineers carrying some of the most privileged skillsets needed for designing and implementing replacements to systems of oppression (and disruptions to said systems), I've been wondering where the ones working to do this can be found. I learned in Computer Ethics 101 about how the history of the development of radiological machines led to the realization that the ethical path to creating systems for our lives involves stopping using them when they accidentally/repeatedly harm. I'm looking for different paths than murder to accomplish this. Anyone else want to get together around these ideas to start designing?

jckahn 2y ago
This is the main reason I built https://chitchatter.im/ https://chitchatter.im/. I hope to see it be used as a tool to safely organize around building a better world.
- crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
  Thanks for this! Gonna ask around for help in evaluating it for security.
  - jckahn 2y ago
    Awesome! Let me know if I can help or answer any questions. :)
- _-_-__-_-_- 2y ago
  https://chitchatter.im/public/a15225a7-cf8c-4f6c-955a-e5fe15623f2a https://chitchatter.im/public/a15225a7-cf8c-4f6c-955a-e5fe15... to join a hackernews public chat!
astrange 2y ago
If you want better healthcare you don't need to invent anything new or "disrupt systems of oppression". Just pick another country where it's working and do what they do. Largely, they have a lot more doctors, hospitals and MRI machines per capita than we do, and they pay their doctors less and require less education from them. This is particularly safer in America because the #1 thing voters hate is anyone doing anything new. If you ever try doing anything new you'll immediately get voted out. That's what happened after the ACA passed.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > If you want better healthcare you don't need to invent anything new or "disrupt systems of oppression". Just pick another country where it's working and do what they do. Sure. That's like telling me that if I want to win an Olympic gold medal, I should just do what Phelps does. It'll work, right? Even those countries may only have metastable healthcare economics, and while it looks as if it works now it could fail in the future. In the short term. > Largely, they have a lot more doctors, hospitals and MRI machines per capita than we do, So you're saying that all we need to do is have more resources that we don't have more of?
  - mtoner23 2y ago
    The AMA artificially caps the number of doctors and hospitals we have to increase salaries and costs. So no it doesn't necessarily take more resources to do these things
    - astrange 2y ago
      They've backed off on that and I think support more residency slots for training doctors now, but it actually is a funding issue because Medicare pays for a lot of that. We also have very high to impossible standards for training doctors, and our residency rotation program requires you to not sleep because it was designed by a literal coke addict.
      - theGnuMe 2y ago
        Which is dumb because there’s plenty of money to pay the residents otherwise.
        EvanAnderson 2y ago
        The AMA has reversed position from their 1990s lobby to limit residency slots (which got enacted under the Republican "Contract with America"). At this point, increasing funding for residency slots would be seen as increasing government spending and is politically unpalatable.
sovietswag 2y ago
You’re on the right path my friend, hang on to the feeling that drove you to write this. Not everyone has it, and you may even find yourself having woken up with it missing one day. So use it while you have it
- crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
  Thanks for the encouragement! I care for a 6-year old I've nurtured through anarchic principles. This feeling, if it can go missing, is reignited by things they say and normalized forms of childhood oppression they experience/witness.
randysalami 2y ago
I have some ideas. randyselimi on Discord
- crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
  I'm peculiarlyrevokingconsent on Discord. Sent FR.
greenie_beans 2y ago
civic tech! https://civictech.guide/ https://civictech.guide/
autoexec 2y ago
> I'm looking for different paths than murder to accomplish this. It seems like our entire system has been intentionally designed and refined over centuries specifically to ensure that nothing short of radical, even violent, acts will have any meaningful impact on those in power. Corporations in particular have insulated themselves from any accountability whatsoever and there are literal serial killers who knowingly sold products and took actions that they knew would kill people who have never and will never see a single day behind bars. I sure hope that programmers, hackers, computer scientists, or systems designers/engineers find some means to improve the situation, and I'd certainly support the effort but I'm far from optimistic.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >Corporations in particular have insulated themselves from any accountability whatsoever and there are literal serial killers who knowingly sold products and took actions that they knew would kill people who have never and will never see a single day behind bars. Exactly: look at the people behind the Ford Pinto (with the exploding gas tank), and more recently the people behind the Boeing 737MAX.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    Philip Morris, DuPont, Philips Respironics, Purdue Pharma, Johnson & Johnson, Nestlé, the list just goes on and on.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      I hate to defend them, but at least with Philip Morris, they warn you outright that their products cause cancer, right on the package, yet people keep buying them anyway. (Yes, I know they had to be forced into this years ago by the government, but still that's better than Boeing where the government said their product was safe.)
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
xeonmc 2y ago
Not as a direct response to the call to action, but this comment reminded me of the entire plot of the 2014 videogame Watch Dogs[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs_(video_game)
ParetoOptimal 2y ago
Oddly a talk from emacsconf a few days ago comes to mind: https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/blee/ https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/blee/

jckahn 2y ago

This is the main reason I built https://chitchatter.im/ https://chitchatter.im/. I hope to see it be used as a tool to safely organize around building a better world.

crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
Thanks for this! Gonna ask around for help in evaluating it for security.
- jckahn 2y ago
  Awesome! Let me know if I can help or answer any questions. :)
_-_-__-_-_- 2y ago
https://chitchatter.im/public/a15225a7-cf8c-4f6c-955a-e5fe15623f2a https://chitchatter.im/public/a15225a7-cf8c-4f6c-955a-e5fe15... to join a hackernews public chat!

astrange 2y ago

If you want better healthcare you don't need to invent anything new or "disrupt systems of oppression". Just pick another country where it's working and do what they do. Largely, they have a lot more doctors, hospitals and MRI machines per capita than we do, and they pay their doctors less and require less education from them. This is particularly safer in America because the #1 thing voters hate is anyone doing anything new. If you ever try doing anything new you'll immediately get voted out. That's what happened after the ACA passed.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> If you want better healthcare you don't need to invent anything new or "disrupt systems of oppression". Just pick another country where it's working and do what they do. Sure. That's like telling me that if I want to win an Olympic gold medal, I should just do what Phelps does. It'll work, right? Even those countries may only have metastable healthcare economics, and while it looks as if it works now it could fail in the future. In the short term. > Largely, they have a lot more doctors, hospitals and MRI machines per capita than we do, So you're saying that all we need to do is have more resources that we don't have more of?
- mtoner23 2y ago
  The AMA artificially caps the number of doctors and hospitals we have to increase salaries and costs. So no it doesn't necessarily take more resources to do these things
  - astrange 2y ago
    They've backed off on that and I think support more residency slots for training doctors now, but it actually is a funding issue because Medicare pays for a lot of that. We also have very high to impossible standards for training doctors, and our residency rotation program requires you to not sleep because it was designed by a literal coke addict.
    - theGnuMe 2y ago
      Which is dumb because there’s plenty of money to pay the residents otherwise.
      - EvanAnderson 2y ago
        The AMA has reversed position from their 1990s lobby to limit residency slots (which got enacted under the Republican "Contract with America"). At this point, increasing funding for residency slots would be seen as increasing government spending and is politically unpalatable.

sovietswag 2y ago

You’re on the right path my friend, hang on to the feeling that drove you to write this. Not everyone has it, and you may even find yourself having woken up with it missing one day. So use it while you have it

crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
Thanks for the encouragement! I care for a 6-year old I've nurtured through anarchic principles. This feeling, if it can go missing, is reignited by things they say and normalized forms of childhood oppression they experience/witness.

randysalami 2y ago

I have some ideas. randyselimi on Discord

crawfordcomeaux 2y ago
I'm peculiarlyrevokingconsent on Discord. Sent FR.

greenie_beans 2y ago

civic tech! https://civictech.guide/ https://civictech.guide/

autoexec 2y ago

> I'm looking for different paths than murder to accomplish this. It seems like our entire system has been intentionally designed and refined over centuries specifically to ensure that nothing short of radical, even violent, acts will have any meaningful impact on those in power. Corporations in particular have insulated themselves from any accountability whatsoever and there are literal serial killers who knowingly sold products and took actions that they knew would kill people who have never and will never see a single day behind bars. I sure hope that programmers, hackers, computer scientists, or systems designers/engineers find some means to improve the situation, and I'd certainly support the effort but I'm far from optimistic.

shiroiushi 2y ago
>Corporations in particular have insulated themselves from any accountability whatsoever and there are literal serial killers who knowingly sold products and took actions that they knew would kill people who have never and will never see a single day behind bars. Exactly: look at the people behind the Ford Pinto (with the exploding gas tank), and more recently the people behind the Boeing 737MAX.
- autoexec 2y ago
  Philip Morris, DuPont, Philips Respironics, Purdue Pharma, Johnson & Johnson, Nestlé, the list just goes on and on.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    I hate to defend them, but at least with Philip Morris, they warn you outright that their products cause cancer, right on the package, yet people keep buying them anyway. (Yes, I know they had to be forced into this years ago by the government, but still that's better than Boeing where the government said their product was safe.)
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

xeonmc 2y ago

Not as a direct response to the call to action, but this comment reminded me of the entire plot of the 2014 videogame Watch Dogs[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch_Dogs_(video_game)

ParetoOptimal 2y ago

Oddly a talk from emacsconf a few days ago comes to mind: https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/blee/ https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/blee/