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The people that should be blamed are the politicians that created this mess in the first place, not the people administering the broken system that they can’t c

by avalys 2y ago

The people that should be blamed are the politicians that created this mess in the first place, not the people administering the broken system that they can’t change unilaterally.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
> they can’t change unilaterally. well that shows why you're not aligned with those out there who are frustrated with Healthcare. We weaken universal healthcare almost the moment the administration shifts. It may as well be unilateral.
hilux 2y ago
UnitedHealthcare is pretty well-established to be much worse than average within the industry. This is not new news.
tartoran 2y ago
The people administering these broken systems who are being paid huge salaries are totally innocent, they had no other alternative, they wanted regular salaries and to do good to their customers but were forced into these jobs. /s #FORCED_CEO_LABOR_HAS_DIRE_CONSEQUENCES
a12k 2y ago
People do blame the politicians, but they rightly also blame anyone who has a hand in and nexus to furthering the rotten system. CEOs, AI algorithms people who write algorithms to deny coverage, software developers who ship it to production, etc are all culpable to some degree. The bigger the nexus, the more the culpability. Night janitor? Probably not enough nexus to be blamed. The Tech Lead on the “Deny Healthcare for Corporate Profits” initiative? Probably as culpable as the CEO.
mupuff1234 2y ago
Execs of companies beyond a certain size are part of the political elite - in fact they probably have more political strength then the average politician.
jjulius 2y ago
No, it's not that black-and-white. The politicians are to blame, as are the corporations and business interests who continue to take advantage of the system for financial gain, as opposed to working to fix it from within.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
acdha 2y ago
The system was created at their behest specifically not to reduce their profitability. If you didn’t follow the debate 15 years ago, the ACA was the compromise adopted after the healthcare industry plowed money into advertisements, lobbying, and astroturf to kill the idea of a public option. The concept traces back to the Heritage Foundation’s proposal offered after the healthcare industry killed the Clinton healthcare plan in 1993, but the Republicans immediately switched to opposing that as soon as it had any chance of passing because literal billions were on the line as soon as insurers couldn’t drop the most expensive customers from their pools.
- avalys 2y ago
  What role did the CEO who was killed play in that debate 15 years ago? Why are you still shifting blame from the politicians who created this system? They didn’t have to listen to the healthcare industry. They are accountable to the public. They got voted into office and they put this system in place. Of course the healthcare CEOs are going to argue in their own interest - but they don’t call the shots here! The politicians do.
  - acdha 2y ago
    A better question would be why you’re trying so hard to exonerate some of the richest and most powerful people in the country. Trying to blame nebulous politicians without thinking about how they got elected or what they were asked to do legislatively, or how much public opinion is shaped by mass communications and the status quo, feels like a joke about a physicist trying to say another field shouldn’t exist because their “assume a perfectly spherical cow” thought exercise wasn’t too complicated.
    - avalys 2y ago
      The guy who was killed, with annual compensation of $10M, is one of the richest and most powerful people in the country? There are FAANG ICs making more than that.
      - 2y ago
WD-42 2y ago
The execs of these companies aren't just hapless administrators plodding along in a broken system of someone else's design. They very clearly to everything they can to extract as much value as they can from the situation.
happytoexplain 2y ago
The idea that a business is morally blameless to act in any way as long as it A. improves profit, and B. is within the law; and that everybody must limit themselves to voting with their patronage and are somehow wrong to e.g. voice criticism; is obviously, intuitively false.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Closely related: The idea that a market-priced transaction is fundamentally neutral and creates a moral and ethical firewall between both halves. Satirical example: "Okay, so maybe we knowingly sold guns and mustard-gas to the Elbonian death-squads which they used to kill millions during the genocide, but it's not our fault they were the highest bidder. You can't blame us for a perfectly moral transaction because all parties made a voluntary agreement to exchange goods. In fact, it's people like you who are the real evil ones here, trying to infringe on my right to do whatever I want with my property!"
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
yunohn 2y ago
In what universe are the politicians and healthcare companies not in cahoots? Like the rest of our industries?
computerthings 2y ago
If "just following orders" wasn't already completely null and void, i.e. if it was possibly to come up with an even worse defense, "just following incentives" would be that defense. And "politicians" didn't create that mess either, corrupt politicians who acted on behalf of their donors, rather on behalf of the people they represent, did that. It's not mainly politicians profiting off this after all, some of them kinda just read from the teleprompter. Does that make them blameless? Of course not. Every single person in the chain, be it a chain of command or incentives, is responsible for not refusing to participate.

by avalys 2y ago

The people that should be blamed are the politicians that created this mess in the first place, not the people administering the broken system that they can’t change unilaterally.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

> they can’t change unilaterally. well that shows why you're not aligned with those out there who are frustrated with Healthcare. We weaken universal healthcare almost the moment the administration shifts. It may as well be unilateral.

hilux 2y ago

UnitedHealthcare is pretty well-established to be much worse than average within the industry. This is not new news.

tartoran 2y ago

The people administering these broken systems who are being paid huge salaries are totally innocent, they had no other alternative, they wanted regular salaries and to do good to their customers but were forced into these jobs. /s #FORCED_CEO_LABOR_HAS_DIRE_CONSEQUENCES

a12k 2y ago

People do blame the politicians, but they rightly also blame anyone who has a hand in and nexus to furthering the rotten system. CEOs, AI algorithms people who write algorithms to deny coverage, software developers who ship it to production, etc are all culpable to some degree. The bigger the nexus, the more the culpability. Night janitor? Probably not enough nexus to be blamed. The Tech Lead on the “Deny Healthcare for Corporate Profits” initiative? Probably as culpable as the CEO.

mupuff1234 2y ago

Execs of companies beyond a certain size are part of the political elite - in fact they probably have more political strength then the average politician.

jjulius 2y ago

No, it's not that black-and-white. The politicians are to blame, as are the corporations and business interests who continue to take advantage of the system for financial gain, as opposed to working to fix it from within.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

acdha 2y ago

The system was created at their behest specifically not to reduce their profitability. If you didn’t follow the debate 15 years ago, the ACA was the compromise adopted after the healthcare industry plowed money into advertisements, lobbying, and astroturf to kill the idea of a public option. The concept traces back to the Heritage Foundation’s proposal offered after the healthcare industry killed the Clinton healthcare plan in 1993, but the Republicans immediately switched to opposing that as soon as it had any chance of passing because literal billions were on the line as soon as insurers couldn’t drop the most expensive customers from their pools.

avalys 2y ago
What role did the CEO who was killed play in that debate 15 years ago? Why are you still shifting blame from the politicians who created this system? They didn’t have to listen to the healthcare industry. They are accountable to the public. They got voted into office and they put this system in place. Of course the healthcare CEOs are going to argue in their own interest - but they don’t call the shots here! The politicians do.
- acdha 2y ago
  A better question would be why you’re trying so hard to exonerate some of the richest and most powerful people in the country. Trying to blame nebulous politicians without thinking about how they got elected or what they were asked to do legislatively, or how much public opinion is shaped by mass communications and the status quo, feels like a joke about a physicist trying to say another field shouldn’t exist because their “assume a perfectly spherical cow” thought exercise wasn’t too complicated.
  - avalys 2y ago
    The guy who was killed, with annual compensation of $10M, is one of the richest and most powerful people in the country? There are FAANG ICs making more than that.
    - 2y ago

WD-42 2y ago

The execs of these companies aren't just hapless administrators plodding along in a broken system of someone else's design. They very clearly to everything they can to extract as much value as they can from the situation.

happytoexplain 2y ago

The idea that a business is morally blameless to act in any way as long as it A. improves profit, and B. is within the law; and that everybody must limit themselves to voting with their patronage and are somehow wrong to e.g. voice criticism; is obviously, intuitively false.

Terr_ 2y ago
Closely related: The idea that a market-priced transaction is fundamentally neutral and creates a moral and ethical firewall between both halves. Satirical example: "Okay, so maybe we knowingly sold guns and mustard-gas to the Elbonian death-squads which they used to kill millions during the genocide, but it's not our fault they were the highest bidder. You can't blame us for a perfectly moral transaction because all parties made a voluntary agreement to exchange goods. In fact, it's people like you who are the real evil ones here, trying to infringe on my right to do whatever I want with my property!"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

yunohn 2y ago

In what universe are the politicians and healthcare companies not in cahoots? Like the rest of our industries?

computerthings 2y ago

If "just following orders" wasn't already completely null and void, i.e. if it was possibly to come up with an even worse defense, "just following incentives" would be that defense. And "politicians" didn't create that mess either, corrupt politicians who acted on behalf of their donors, rather on behalf of the people they represent, did that. It's not mainly politicians profiting off this after all, some of them kinda just read from the teleprompter. Does that make them blameless? Of course not. Every single person in the chain, be it a chain of command or incentives, is responsible for not refusing to participate.