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Note that the research is centered on Germany, where there is a bit more of a default-deny approach to electrical safety. Here in the US, some of the pictures

Note that the research is centered on Germany, where there is a bit more of a default-deny approach to electrical safety. Here in the US, some of the pictures I've seen of sample finished installations that the installer is proud of have been downright scary. Like giant wall of 2V batteries with terminals coming out horizontally, open bus bars tying them all in series to make 48V, and then the leads going to the inverter just draped over the entrance to a wiring trough with a rough edge! There was probably a fuse as part of the inverter itself, but no protection for the batteries themselves. I'm guessing it has to be a case of code inspectors not particularly caring or knowing about the DC side? Although with that kind of current capacity, perhaps the wiring itself is considered a fuse...

gottorf 2y ago
> I'm guessing it has to be a case of code inspectors not particularly caring or knowing about the DC side? I don't know what you saw, but it could have been a "homeowner's special", or some kind of proof-of-concept? Professionals are certainly capable of hackjobs, but I have a hard time thinking that a client would be satisfied enough to pay for what you describe. You don't have to be an electrician to know that some stuff just looks dangerous and poorly done!
- mindslight 2y ago
  No. It was a Faceboot page of a decently popular solar installation company showing off their completed works. There could have been some anti-abrasion thing I couldn't see in the picture, but the lack of fusing was still concerning. (And FWIW I did check the battery datasheets to make sure there weren't internal fuses). I suppose those particular installations might have gotten a pass on inspections due to "off grid", but still.
neither_color 2y ago
>I'm guessing it has to be a case of code inspectors not particularly caring or knowing about the DC side? I'm inclined to agree with this. US electrical code, especially in recent years, is pretty robust and has gotten to the point where people groan about excessive safety features(tamper resistant outlets required in all new dwelling spaces, arc fault circuit breakers, whole home surge protection all make wiring a house significantly more expensive than 15 years ago). Inspectors are pretty good at catching grounding and other issues. That said we don't yet have generational knowledge of PV and battery systems. A lot of installers are still learning by doing, it feels. Are you sure it wasn't just DIY un-permitted work, though?
- ssl-3 2y ago
  It is always important to remember that the National Electric Code isn't national. It is up to the states or other (more-local) AHJs to adopt it (or not). And many simply have not done so. For example: A person building a single-family home in Meigs County, Ohio, has no electrical code to follow, nor any electrical permits to pull, nor any government inspections of any electrical work. (Lacking code, there's no standard by which to permit nor to inspect the work.)
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > excessive safety features Well your average electrical wiring will live on for 50 years or more. The German electricity subreddit routinely has horror shows dating from shortly after WW2, sometimes even from before that, that are still in service. That means whatever you "save" money on now will haunt you and reduce your home's safety needlessly for decades. As for tamper resistant outlets and surge protection, these things aren't that much more expensive - (Schneider Electric ones are 1€ more expensive in the tamper-resistant variant, but admittedly that's Germany and not the US), and surge protection adds about 700€ in material costs for a three-tier protection. The only thing in your list that is really expensive are the AFDDs, daaaamn they are expensive, but so worth the money.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    It's not about the money. It's about the hassle of having stuff that represents a usefulness and longevity downgrade over what it replaced.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      What about these is a downgrade?! Surge protection remains useful until it triggers due to a surge, and a non-protected home in contrast would just have a lot of the devices inside it fried. AFDDs may not live as long as a "normal" RCD but replacing them isn't that big of a deal compared to the fire risk it prevents - about 1/3 of all residential fires are due to faulty electrical stuff. The only thing I can see as annoying are protected outlets, but hey... a slight annoyance compared to a child getting an electric shock, a small price to pay.

gottorf 2y ago

> I'm guessing it has to be a case of code inspectors not particularly caring or knowing about the DC side? I don't know what you saw, but it could have been a "homeowner's special", or some kind of proof-of-concept? Professionals are certainly capable of hackjobs, but I have a hard time thinking that a client would be satisfied enough to pay for what you describe. You don't have to be an electrician to know that some stuff just looks dangerous and poorly done!

mindslight 2y ago
No. It was a Faceboot page of a decently popular solar installation company showing off their completed works. There could have been some anti-abrasion thing I couldn't see in the picture, but the lack of fusing was still concerning. (And FWIW I did check the battery datasheets to make sure there weren't internal fuses). I suppose those particular installations might have gotten a pass on inspections due to "off grid", but still.

neither_color 2y ago

>I'm guessing it has to be a case of code inspectors not particularly caring or knowing about the DC side? I'm inclined to agree with this. US electrical code, especially in recent years, is pretty robust and has gotten to the point where people groan about excessive safety features(tamper resistant outlets required in all new dwelling spaces, arc fault circuit breakers, whole home surge protection all make wiring a house significantly more expensive than 15 years ago). Inspectors are pretty good at catching grounding and other issues. That said we don't yet have generational knowledge of PV and battery systems. A lot of installers are still learning by doing, it feels. Are you sure it wasn't just DIY un-permitted work, though?

ssl-3 2y ago
It is always important to remember that the National Electric Code isn't national. It is up to the states or other (more-local) AHJs to adopt it (or not). And many simply have not done so. For example: A person building a single-family home in Meigs County, Ohio, has no electrical code to follow, nor any electrical permits to pull, nor any government inspections of any electrical work. (Lacking code, there's no standard by which to permit nor to inspect the work.)
mschuster91 2y ago
> excessive safety features Well your average electrical wiring will live on for 50 years or more. The German electricity subreddit routinely has horror shows dating from shortly after WW2, sometimes even from before that, that are still in service. That means whatever you "save" money on now will haunt you and reduce your home's safety needlessly for decades. As for tamper resistant outlets and surge protection, these things aren't that much more expensive - (Schneider Electric ones are 1€ more expensive in the tamper-resistant variant, but admittedly that's Germany and not the US), and surge protection adds about 700€ in material costs for a three-tier protection. The only thing in your list that is really expensive are the AFDDs, daaaamn they are expensive, but so worth the money.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  It's not about the money. It's about the hassle of having stuff that represents a usefulness and longevity downgrade over what it replaced.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    What about these is a downgrade?! Surge protection remains useful until it triggers due to a surge, and a non-protected home in contrast would just have a lot of the devices inside it fried. AFDDs may not live as long as a "normal" RCD but replacing them isn't that big of a deal compared to the fire risk it prevents - about 1/3 of all residential fires are due to faulty electrical stuff. The only thing I can see as annoying are protected outlets, but hey... a slight annoyance compared to a child getting an electric shock, a small price to pay.