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One of my hobbies while at Google (2010-2015) was to watch the multiple failed attempts to get rid of Borg Config Language and actual Python in Blaze. It took a

by zellyn 2y ago

One of my hobbies while at Google (2010-2015) was to watch the multiple failed attempts to get rid of Borg Config Language and actual Python in Blaze. It took a lot of work until they eventually succeeded. You're probably underestimating the rigor, the pain, and also the value involved in cleaning those things up: being able to cleanly operate programmatically at scale in the Google monorepo is extremely necessary. (This is also why I don't trust configuration languages built by people who _didn't_ observe the years of pain. Cue and jsonnet are notable projects that were able to incorporate a lot of lessons.)

zellyn 2y ago
Also, I think the Rust version was built as a side-project, then handed off to Facebook. With regards to Fuchsia… I used to think building a new OS from the ground up was madness. Now I think _not_ doing that eventually is madness. I'd be a lot happier if Zircon and Fuchsia were done in Rust though…
- surajrmal 2y ago
  A good deal of fuchsia is done in rust (roughly 50% and increasing over time). People over emphasize the importance of zircon needing to be in rust. It's more important for new code to be rust than for existing code to be rewritten. Zircon isn't a very fast growing part of the entire OS.
  - zellyn 2y ago
    Fair. That study on writing only new things in Rust was surprising! https://security.googleblog.com/2024/09/eliminating-memory-safety-vulnerabilities-Android.html https://security.googleblog.com/2024/09/eliminating-memory-s... I do think for an OS/Kernel, it's worth having everything in a memory-safe language, and possibly worth formal verification too, if the very core of it is small enough…
foooorsyth 2y ago
I can appreciate the pain of actually getting things through in a large (100k+ people) organization. What do you consider the be the justification for three separate implementations of the same build config language? Genuine question. I am not doubting the need for the DSL itself.
- jsnell 2y ago
  (Note that the Rust implementation is by Facebook, not by Google.) If you're looking to embed a scripting language in a Go program, having a embedded language implementation written in Java isn't very useful. And vice versa.
  - foooorsyth 2y ago
    Ah I missed that this thing is actually embedded. I thought they were just doing multiple implementations for shits and gigs. Carry on, Google
    - zellyn 2y ago
      Yep. Basically the same reason there are so many lua implementations, or WASM ones.

by zellyn 2y ago

zellyn 2y ago

Also, I think the Rust version was built as a side-project, then handed off to Facebook. With regards to Fuchsia… I used to think building a new OS from the ground up was madness. Now I think _not_ doing that eventually is madness. I'd be a lot happier if Zircon and Fuchsia were done in Rust though…

surajrmal 2y ago
A good deal of fuchsia is done in rust (roughly 50% and increasing over time). People over emphasize the importance of zircon needing to be in rust. It's more important for new code to be rust than for existing code to be rewritten. Zircon isn't a very fast growing part of the entire OS.
- zellyn 2y ago
  Fair. That study on writing only new things in Rust was surprising! https://security.googleblog.com/2024/09/eliminating-memory-safety-vulnerabilities-Android.html https://security.googleblog.com/2024/09/eliminating-memory-s... I do think for an OS/Kernel, it's worth having everything in a memory-safe language, and possibly worth formal verification too, if the very core of it is small enough…

foooorsyth 2y ago

I can appreciate the pain of actually getting things through in a large (100k+ people) organization. What do you consider the be the justification for three separate implementations of the same build config language? Genuine question. I am not doubting the need for the DSL itself.

jsnell 2y ago
(Note that the Rust implementation is by Facebook, not by Google.) If you're looking to embed a scripting language in a Go program, having a embedded language implementation written in Java isn't very useful. And vice versa.
- foooorsyth 2y ago
  Ah I missed that this thing is actually embedded. I thought they were just doing multiple implementations for shits and gigs. Carry on, Google
  - zellyn 2y ago
    Yep. Basically the same reason there are so many lua implementations, or WASM ones.