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> There are two problems here. 1) why does it five hours with a "high speed" ICE train (avg. speed ~100km/hours, pathetic). 2) why is this so expensive that tak

> There are two problems here. 1) why does it five hours with a "high speed" ICE train (avg. speed ~100km/hours, pathetic). 2) why is this so expensive that taking a plane is actually cheaper? Subsidies aside, an airport network is much easier to fund than a train network. Each new airport you open brings you network effect benefits, whereas opening a new train station is worthless if you don't also build new train lines, with all the associated infrastructure costs and eminent domain issues.

eesmith 2y ago
I may have this wrong, but I don't think there are many new airports being built in Europe or the US. Upgrades, certainly, but even a new airport like in Berlin replaced an old airport which was shut down, right? I'm pretty sure in the US there were a lot more airports back in the 1950s when war surplus prop planes were cheap, jet service wasn't available, lots of vets had flight experience, and back before the interstate system was built. Some became general aviation fields, with no commercial flights these days. Basically, the network effect wasn't enough to keep up with the cost savings of using bigger planes and bigger hubs, given that people could more easily drive to the airport (on roads 'with all the associated infrastructure costs and eminent domain issues'). Don't know about Europe though.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  We have many military airports that nowadays also take civilian traffic, that is how they are "opening" in Europe. Mostly based on the after effects of cold war wanning, and EU. As things are, maybe they will invert trend and focus on military only again.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Could you give me a few examples? A DDG search is proving hopelessly inadequate. It only finds information about new/remodeled terminals, and the proposed Central Communication Port in Poland, which is greenfield (literally) but hasn't started yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Germany helpfully lists airfields in Germany which don't have regularly scheduled commercial passenger service. The first I picked was Kiel Airport, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_Airport , which fits my description of how airports don't benefit from a simple network effect. It had "27 national and international destinations" back around 1930, then was mixed military and civilian. The first terminal was built in 1965. In 1987, "Lufthansa began offering scheduled flights to Frankfurt, and later to Cologne/Bonn, Munich, Copenhagen, Kaliningrad and Riga." The last commercial scheduled passenger flight was in 2006. I'm curious if any of the military airports you mention once had passenger service, reflecting how airports used to be more common as technical limitations prevented them from carrying many passengers or going all that far.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      I am aware of at least three. - Weeze, civilian since 2000 (https://airport-weeze.com/company/history https://airport-weeze.com/company/history) - Frankfurt Haan, since about 2000 as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt%E2%80%93Hahn_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt%E2%80%93Hahn_Airport) - Beja, since 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_Airport)
      - eesmith 2y ago
        Thanks! I found it humorous that all three were started by the military of another country (UK, US, and West Germany, respectively). I don't think those really support the idea of there being network effect benefits to opening a new airport. The Wikipedia entry for Frankfurt Haan makes it sound like it's been a money loser for at least 15 years, and the one for Beja says "the airport has no scheduled passenger flights".

eesmith 2y ago

I may have this wrong, but I don't think there are many new airports being built in Europe or the US. Upgrades, certainly, but even a new airport like in Berlin replaced an old airport which was shut down, right? I'm pretty sure in the US there were a lot more airports back in the 1950s when war surplus prop planes were cheap, jet service wasn't available, lots of vets had flight experience, and back before the interstate system was built. Some became general aviation fields, with no commercial flights these days. Basically, the network effect wasn't enough to keep up with the cost savings of using bigger planes and bigger hubs, given that people could more easily drive to the airport (on roads 'with all the associated infrastructure costs and eminent domain issues'). Don't know about Europe though.

pjmlp 2y ago
We have many military airports that nowadays also take civilian traffic, that is how they are "opening" in Europe. Mostly based on the after effects of cold war wanning, and EU. As things are, maybe they will invert trend and focus on military only again.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Could you give me a few examples? A DDG search is proving hopelessly inadequate. It only finds information about new/remodeled terminals, and the proposed Central Communication Port in Poland, which is greenfield (literally) but hasn't started yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Germany helpfully lists airfields in Germany which don't have regularly scheduled commercial passenger service. The first I picked was Kiel Airport, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel_Airport , which fits my description of how airports don't benefit from a simple network effect. It had "27 national and international destinations" back around 1930, then was mixed military and civilian. The first terminal was built in 1965. In 1987, "Lufthansa began offering scheduled flights to Frankfurt, and later to Cologne/Bonn, Munich, Copenhagen, Kaliningrad and Riga." The last commercial scheduled passenger flight was in 2006. I'm curious if any of the military airports you mention once had passenger service, reflecting how airports used to be more common as technical limitations prevented them from carrying many passengers or going all that far.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    I am aware of at least three. - Weeze, civilian since 2000 (https://airport-weeze.com/company/history https://airport-weeze.com/company/history) - Frankfurt Haan, since about 2000 as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt%E2%80%93Hahn_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt%E2%80%93Hahn_Airport) - Beja, since 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_Airport)
    - eesmith 2y ago
      Thanks! I found it humorous that all three were started by the military of another country (UK, US, and West Germany, respectively). I don't think those really support the idea of there being network effect benefits to opening a new airport. The Wikipedia entry for Frankfurt Haan makes it sound like it's been a money loser for at least 15 years, and the one for Beja says "the airport has no scheduled passenger flights".