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The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seein

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
moooo99 2y ago
> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required. In 2015 Bosch introduced a system that did essentially the same thing as SawStop, but with a slightly different mechanism. SawStop sued in the US and won against Bosch. Since 2017 SawStop is part of Festool, which explains why their tech is slowly making their way into Festool products. For example, the TKS 80 has the SawStop functionality built in. But at an MSRP of ~2.500€ it’s not really a hobbyist machine.
- rusteh1 2y ago
  Not true. They are widely available and used in Australia.
- zitsarethecure 2y ago
  Bosch REAXX has a significant advantage, that being it is non-destructive to the saw blade when it activates. All you have to do is press a reset button and you are back to work. Not having the option of buying this tech instead of SawStop's in the US was a net negative for consumers, IMO.
- Blackthorn 2y ago
  > Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required. I think it's more regulatory. There are regulations in the EU around things like blade stop time that products designed for the USA do not meet.
jwr 2y ago
One reason could also be that the US woodworking culture treats a table saw as an essential tool (especially the basic table saw, without a sliding table), while elsewhere track saws are used more, it seems. If you run commercial production, then you do need a table saw (but one with a sliding table!), but for hobby work you might as well spend some time for track saw setups and be much safer.
- ragingroosevelt 2y ago
  I think you're probably right. I have an older Delta table saw and recently decided to sell it because a miter saw + track saw + some other tools you need anyhow does nearly everything a table saw would do, but uses space way more efficiently.
  - delichon 2y ago
    My table saw is space efficient because I also use it (covered) as a table in the middle of my small shop, sometimes to support work I cut with a track saw. And I added a router table to the extension, which just disappears as part of the table. It's a space dense with utility.
- miunau 2y ago
  Table saws are very common in Europe in hobby circles as well. If you take woodworking in school you'll learn to use it along with other tools. Also, you usually build the sliding table and other jigs yourself using the tracks on every table saw. They're called T-tracks, there's a couple different common widths.
- Arainach 2y ago
  They're very different tools, and neither is inherently safe. You can absolutely have kickback-like issues with a track saw if you're not careful when making plunge cuts, for instance. A track saw is more convenient and arguably safer when breaking down a huge piece of plywood. After that it's no table saw replacement. You can't easily do repeated cuts of identical stuff width, you can't work on small parts, you can't make most of the common jigs, you can't do dadoes or box joints, etc.
miunau 2y ago
Sawstop wasn't available for purchase in the EU until last month. The only version that was available was the very expensive Festool table saw, though they are both from the same company. I'm currently waiting on my compact Sawstop to be shipped from the first batch.
- marcoeire 2y ago
  Did you have a problem buying? I'm currently online trying to purchase but it's showing error stating no address has been provided
michaelt 2y ago
> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular saws instead. I suspect America also has a lot more woodworkers; many of their buildings have wood frames, wood siding, and bitumen-over-wood roofs.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have garages, but they are too small for these saws and usually lack power). In my experience apartments in Europe are bigger than in the US but I've haven't seen enough apartments in Europe to be confident in that.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    How is availability and cost is raw lumber in Europe?
    - Freak_NL 2y ago
      Good and fairly high, respectively. That doesn't stop people from woodworking though.
  - dynm 2y ago
    Americans on average have much more living space than Europeans: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-capita-in-residential-buildings-worldwide-as-of-2008-Data_fig2_358361768 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-c...
Blackthorn 2y ago
Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because they've developed their own mechanism that they only use on their priciest saws. Woodworking YouTube has changed this a bit. Since American creators are so widespread, everyone has gotten exposed to SawStop and I know at least a couple years back people were trying to import American-style table saws instead of the local European-style because that's what YTers have. I don't know if it was regulatory or what that has prevented the former from being more available in Europe.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Interesting seems like the European version is essentially an integral sled? That does seem much safer and inherently keeps hands away from the blade when used properly so a saw stop mechanism might not actually add a huge amount of safety real safety but is still a nice final safety measure. A lot of US literature and videos I've seen are heavily suggests using a sled whenever practical.
- f1shy 2y ago
  Also dados are prohibited (more or less) in the EU. So yes, there are regulatory issues. And btw, I just cannot find a sawstop to buy here (at a human price)
  - rhinoceraptor 2y ago
    I'm not sure if they still make it, but Festool and Sawstop are owned by the same parent company, Festool sells the TKS-80 saw in Europe that has the Sawstop tech.
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    Right, dados are one of the things that baffle a lot of European woodworkers, myself included. Not that they don't seem useful; just a little on the iffy side of safety.
mikey_p 2y ago
I believe they just don't market them there, probably not interested in confirming to all the different regulations for different markets, etc. I know some folks have imported them, but I don't think they are sold directly. I think Laura Kampf claims to have one of the first SawStops in Europe.
RobotToaster 2y ago
Table saws are less common in Europe for hobbyists, also things like dado blades are effectively banned, which means we actually use the blade guards that come with saws. We tend to use routers for a lot of the things Americans will use a table saw for.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

moooo99 2y ago

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required. In 2015 Bosch introduced a system that did essentially the same thing as SawStop, but with a slightly different mechanism. SawStop sued in the US and won against Bosch. Since 2017 SawStop is part of Festool, which explains why their tech is slowly making their way into Festool products. For example, the TKS 80 has the SawStop functionality built in. But at an MSRP of ~2.500€ it’s not really a hobbyist machine.

rusteh1 2y ago
Not true. They are widely available and used in Australia.
zitsarethecure 2y ago
Bosch REAXX has a significant advantage, that being it is non-destructive to the saw blade when it activates. All you have to do is press a reset button and you are back to work. Not having the option of buying this tech instead of SawStop's in the US was a net negative for consumers, IMO.
Blackthorn 2y ago
> Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required. I think it's more regulatory. There are regulations in the EU around things like blade stop time that products designed for the USA do not meet.

jwr 2y ago

One reason could also be that the US woodworking culture treats a table saw as an essential tool (especially the basic table saw, without a sliding table), while elsewhere track saws are used more, it seems. If you run commercial production, then you do need a table saw (but one with a sliding table!), but for hobby work you might as well spend some time for track saw setups and be much safer.

ragingroosevelt 2y ago
I think you're probably right. I have an older Delta table saw and recently decided to sell it because a miter saw + track saw + some other tools you need anyhow does nearly everything a table saw would do, but uses space way more efficiently.
- delichon 2y ago
  My table saw is space efficient because I also use it (covered) as a table in the middle of my small shop, sometimes to support work I cut with a track saw. And I added a router table to the extension, which just disappears as part of the table. It's a space dense with utility.
miunau 2y ago
Table saws are very common in Europe in hobby circles as well. If you take woodworking in school you'll learn to use it along with other tools. Also, you usually build the sliding table and other jigs yourself using the tracks on every table saw. They're called T-tracks, there's a couple different common widths.
Arainach 2y ago
They're very different tools, and neither is inherently safe. You can absolutely have kickback-like issues with a track saw if you're not careful when making plunge cuts, for instance. A track saw is more convenient and arguably safer when breaking down a huge piece of plywood. After that it's no table saw replacement. You can't easily do repeated cuts of identical stuff width, you can't work on small parts, you can't make most of the common jigs, you can't do dadoes or box joints, etc.

miunau 2y ago

Sawstop wasn't available for purchase in the EU until last month. The only version that was available was the very expensive Festool table saw, though they are both from the same company. I'm currently waiting on my compact Sawstop to be shipped from the first batch.

marcoeire 2y ago
Did you have a problem buying? I'm currently online trying to purchase but it's showing error stating no address has been provided

michaelt 2y ago

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular saws instead. I suspect America also has a lot more woodworkers; many of their buildings have wood frames, wood siding, and bitumen-over-wood roofs.

bluGill 2y ago
Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have garages, but they are too small for these saws and usually lack power). In my experience apartments in Europe are bigger than in the US but I've haven't seen enough apartments in Europe to be confident in that.
- nothercastle 2y ago
  How is availability and cost is raw lumber in Europe?
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    Good and fairly high, respectively. That doesn't stop people from woodworking though.
- dynm 2y ago
  Americans on average have much more living space than Europeans: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-capita-in-residential-buildings-worldwide-as-of-2008-Data_fig2_358361768 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-c...

Blackthorn 2y ago

Lot of replies here but none of them have really hit the mark. European table saws are fundamentally different than American table saws, where the entire section left of the blade slides forward. Culturally it seems Europeans believe this is "safer" than the American style and therefore they don't need the blade safety mechanism. Personally I think that's nonsense, and apparently so do some of the companies because they've developed their own mechanism that they only use on their priciest saws. Woodworking YouTube has changed this a bit. Since American creators are so widespread, everyone has gotten exposed to SawStop and I know at least a couple years back people were trying to import American-style table saws instead of the local European-style because that's what YTers have. I don't know if it was regulatory or what that has prevented the former from being more available in Europe.

rtkwe 2y ago
Interesting seems like the European version is essentially an integral sled? That does seem much safer and inherently keeps hands away from the blade when used properly so a saw stop mechanism might not actually add a huge amount of safety real safety but is still a nice final safety measure. A lot of US literature and videos I've seen are heavily suggests using a sled whenever practical.
f1shy 2y ago
Also dados are prohibited (more or less) in the EU. So yes, there are regulatory issues. And btw, I just cannot find a sawstop to buy here (at a human price)
- rhinoceraptor 2y ago
  I'm not sure if they still make it, but Festool and Sawstop are owned by the same parent company, Festool sells the TKS-80 saw in Europe that has the Sawstop tech.
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  Right, dados are one of the things that baffle a lot of European woodworkers, myself included. Not that they don't seem useful; just a little on the iffy side of safety.

mikey_p 2y ago

I believe they just don't market them there, probably not interested in confirming to all the different regulations for different markets, etc. I know some folks have imported them, but I don't think they are sold directly. I think Laura Kampf claims to have one of the first SawStops in Europe.

RobotToaster 2y ago

Table saws are less common in Europe for hobbyists, also things like dado blades are effectively banned, which means we actually use the blade guards that come with saws. We tend to use routers for a lot of the things Americans will use a table saw for.