4 ms·

Although I agree with you, IDE fans feel the same way: "Writing code is a solved problem: eclipse or xcode or visual studio. Pick one based on your environment

Although I agree with you, IDE fans feel the same way: "Writing code is a solved problem: eclipse or xcode or visual studio. Pick one based on your environment and get back to work" An argument I hear a lot is: 'vim is fine for editing files on a remote server, but not suitable for everyday work'. I believe it is a common belief outside of the HN crowd.

thedufer 14y ago
But in your example, IDE fans are suggesting a demonstrably worse set of options - when I switch from iOS to Android development, I have to learn an entire new editor. Using vim, I have to learn the `adb` command.
SCdF 14y ago
On IDEs: I have the 'pleasure' of being one of those chaps who spends parts of his day job reworking massive Java projects. There is no way in hell I'm touching that without an editor that deeply understands Java.
- SwellJoe 14y ago
  There are multiple variables in your equation. You may be altering the wrong one.
  - DeepDuh 14y ago
    What are you talking about? His job?
    - tikhonj 14y ago
      Java. Seriously, it's a language sufficiently verbose and inexpressive to effectively require an IDE. If you're just going to be generating 70% of your code from your IDE, why is it there in the first place?
      - DeepDuh 14y ago
        Again, what you say is equivalent to saying "I quit". Not everyone has the luxury to choose all the tools he works with.
        tikhonj 14y ago
        Now is a great time to quit: the job market is crazy for software developers. Maybe you don't have the luxury of choosing what tools to use, but you certainly have the luxury of choosing where to work! Unless you're planning to stay at your current company forever, this is as good a time as any to try something new. Put some excitement into your life :).
        DeepDuh 14y ago
        Actually I wasn't talking about myself. So far I've only been working part time as a software engineer during my studies and I want to start a company next year. So, IF it works out, I could have that luxury. But I still find it a bit silly to tell someone to quit his job just because his current tooling doesn't involve vim or emacs. Tools are just that. Tools. And IMO Java is just fine if you use it where it is the strongest: enterprise business applications. As long as you don't try to push it to places where performance / power optimization is relevant (I'm looking at you, Google -.-).
        tikhonj 14y ago
        Actually, I could live with using an IDE. And most places let you use Emacs if you're crazy enough. (I know both from others and a bit of personal experience :P.) It's the Java that would really drive me off the wall. Even in enterprise business applications (which aren't fun as is), Java is exceptionally annoying. But it is easy to hire for!
      - electrograv 14y ago
        Languages don't just fall into two black and white categories of whether or not it requires an IDE that understands the language. It's a spectrum, which means that all languages should benefit from an IDE that understands the language. If not, then you've just found the perfect holy grail of computer languages. Until then, face the fact that language integration is nice. Unless I'm missing something, specialized non-VIM IDEs tend to be much better at auto completion (especially in C++), jump-to-definition, refactoring, etc. IDE users (who typically are ignorant to VIM) can use these features with extreme productivity. On the other hand, VIM users tend to be rather ignorant of how incredibly productive you can be and how nice it feels to have these powerful context-sensitive tools at your fingertips (and sorry, but CTAGS is useless). Regardless of what IDE you use, nobody can deny IMO that having an editor look up APIs and function lists for you in a context-relevant manner is productivity-boosting versus the alternate of scanning headers manually. So in this sense I think both VIM/EMACS and IDE users are ignorant to other editor paradigms. What I don't like is how each party tries to claim that their method is the best, without having truly tried both. I've used both extensively (used VIM for years) and I prefer IDEs by far, but that's just my personal preference.
  - SCdF 14y ago
    I was editing for brevity, there are some awesome things about my job that balance the terrible.

thedufer 14y ago

But in your example, IDE fans are suggesting a demonstrably worse set of options - when I switch from iOS to Android development, I have to learn an entire new editor. Using vim, I have to learn the `adb` command.

SCdF 14y ago

On IDEs: I have the 'pleasure' of being one of those chaps who spends parts of his day job reworking massive Java projects. There is no way in hell I'm touching that without an editor that deeply understands Java.

SwellJoe 14y ago
There are multiple variables in your equation. You may be altering the wrong one.
- DeepDuh 14y ago
  What are you talking about? His job?
  - tikhonj 14y ago
    Java. Seriously, it's a language sufficiently verbose and inexpressive to effectively require an IDE. If you're just going to be generating 70% of your code from your IDE, why is it there in the first place?
    - DeepDuh 14y ago
      Again, what you say is equivalent to saying "I quit". Not everyone has the luxury to choose all the tools he works with.
      - tikhonj 14y ago
        Now is a great time to quit: the job market is crazy for software developers. Maybe you don't have the luxury of choosing what tools to use, but you certainly have the luxury of choosing where to work! Unless you're planning to stay at your current company forever, this is as good a time as any to try something new. Put some excitement into your life :).
        DeepDuh 14y ago
        Actually I wasn't talking about myself. So far I've only been working part time as a software engineer during my studies and I want to start a company next year. So, IF it works out, I could have that luxury. But I still find it a bit silly to tell someone to quit his job just because his current tooling doesn't involve vim or emacs. Tools are just that. Tools. And IMO Java is just fine if you use it where it is the strongest: enterprise business applications. As long as you don't try to push it to places where performance / power optimization is relevant (I'm looking at you, Google -.-).
        tikhonj 14y ago
        Actually, I could live with using an IDE. And most places let you use Emacs if you're crazy enough. (I know both from others and a bit of personal experience :P.) It's the Java that would really drive me off the wall. Even in enterprise business applications (which aren't fun as is), Java is exceptionally annoying. But it is easy to hire for!
    - electrograv 14y ago
      Languages don't just fall into two black and white categories of whether or not it requires an IDE that understands the language. It's a spectrum, which means that all languages should benefit from an IDE that understands the language. If not, then you've just found the perfect holy grail of computer languages. Until then, face the fact that language integration is nice. Unless I'm missing something, specialized non-VIM IDEs tend to be much better at auto completion (especially in C++), jump-to-definition, refactoring, etc. IDE users (who typically are ignorant to VIM) can use these features with extreme productivity. On the other hand, VIM users tend to be rather ignorant of how incredibly productive you can be and how nice it feels to have these powerful context-sensitive tools at your fingertips (and sorry, but CTAGS is useless). Regardless of what IDE you use, nobody can deny IMO that having an editor look up APIs and function lists for you in a context-relevant manner is productivity-boosting versus the alternate of scanning headers manually. So in this sense I think both VIM/EMACS and IDE users are ignorant to other editor paradigms. What I don't like is how each party tries to claim that their method is the best, without having truly tried both. I've used both extensively (used VIM for years) and I prefer IDEs by far, but that's just my personal preference.
- SCdF 14y ago
  I was editing for brevity, there are some awesome things about my job that balance the terrible.