4 ms·

If you're into that sort of thing, you can do Ctrl + F, bar<esc> in Sublime too. Most of the comparisons in this discussion between vim and non vim demonstrate

If you're into that sort of thing, you can do Ctrl + F, bar<esc> in Sublime too. Most of the comparisons in this discussion between vim and non vim demonstrate high proficiency in vim, but not as much elsewhere. Of course you are more proficient in the tool you know best.

why-el 14y ago
Exactly, and does it really matter? I mean, how many people in usesthis.com actually use Vim? And they are all brilliant people.
- jeffesp 14y ago
  https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:usesthis.com+vim&oq=site:usesthis.com+vim https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=... Gives back a list of interesting people. Not that I think it matters if you use Vim or anything particular for that matter.
- lelele 14y ago
  Brilliant people don't need to be brilliant in everything. You can use lesser tools and still accomplish a lot.
  - hollerith 14y ago
    Or maybe they're not lesser tools.
    - lelele 14y ago
      Yes, but the set of brilliant people is larger than the set of brilliant people using the best tool in each area. We don't live in a perfect world, and brilliant people make trade-offs. Unless you know what kind of trade-offs they made, you can't generalize their choices. For instance, when Peter Norvig switched from Lisp to Python for his classes, many people argued that Python was an "acceptable Lisp". When asked about his decision, Norvig answered that Python was a better choice for his teaching goals, and nothing else. Also, let's not confuse techniques with tools. It is unfortunate that, other than modal editing which is too generic, we don't have a name for Vi-style editing which does not involve Vi, so people confuse Vi-style editing (e.g. the technique), with Vi (e.g. the tool). The tool may have its own shortcomings which render it unsuitable.
ta12121 14y ago
Does your example include the action of deleting bar with baz? Also, not having to move away from the home row makes me feel much faster. Having to use Alt/Control/Arrows makes me cry. (I know you can't avoid Control in Vim, but in this example it is not required.) ci"baz<esc> is 7 keystrokes, only one of which is a jump. <ctl-F>bar<esc>baz is 8 strokes and two jumps. It also requires typing the entire string in quotes. If the example were var foo = "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"; The vim example would not change but yours would. I'm not trying to be an a-hole, use what you like, I'm just saying, that for me the attraction to vim is the strive toward the minimization of keystrokes, especially ones that require me to move my hands.
- recursive 14y ago
  No, good point. You'd then have to type "baz". However, if I was actually faced with this problem, I'd use End, Ctrl + Left, Ctrl + D, baz, which is a total of 7 keystrokes. (if you don't release Ctrl) The vim example was 8 keystrokes. (" is shift + ') I have no doubt that you could manufacture an example that shows a benefit for vim, but I think that the advantages are overestimated by heavy vim users. Edit: Your longer string example is a good example of a task that's more efficient in vim.
  - solutionyogi 14y ago
    I don't know why other Vim users focus on number of keystrokes. In his example, what is more important is that you are 'describing' what you want to do with text with commands. So when you have var foo1 = "bar"; var foo2 = "hello hi"; var foo3 = "when and why"; You can use the same command [cib"] to change the value assigned to foo1/foo2/foo3. You are describing your change semantically i.e. I want to change word inside the double quotes. In Sublime and other editors, it matters what the assignment is and you have to use different approach in each scenario. Frankly, as I type at 70wpm, I don't care about saving a few keystroke here and there.
  - ta12121 14y ago
    I would personally dislike your example because of the use of extended keyboard keys that require repositioning the hand (End, Left).
gcb 14y ago
ctrl+f,bar,esc,ctrl+shift+right,foo i think it's easier to grab the mouse, dlb click bar, foo with vim, it's still easier than grabbing the mouse. that's the litmus test of text editor interface effectiveness. the mouse is awesome, hard to beat. so if your editor beats it, game on!
rahoulb 14y ago
As a heavy user of Sublime, Coda 2 and someone that is still getting to grips with vim, I'd say the real advantage of vim is you can do all of that over ssh with minimal keystrokes over a crappy connection.
- lelele 14y ago
  Actually, this is almost the scenario for which Vim's father was designed.
- mixmastamyk 14y ago
  You can use any editor over ssh these days. Just mount it with sshfs.
  - rahoulb 14y ago
    Coda's "open quickly" is too slow to use over SSHFS (although is OK on a local network over AFP). Sublime's not too bad but it can take a while to build its file list.
  - technomancy 14y ago
    Sure, but you can't do low-latency screen-sharing inside a tmux session over sshfs.

why-el 14y ago

Exactly, and does it really matter? I mean, how many people in usesthis.com actually use Vim? And they are all brilliant people.

jeffesp 14y ago
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:usesthis.com+vim&oq=site:usesthis.com+vim https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=... Gives back a list of interesting people. Not that I think it matters if you use Vim or anything particular for that matter.
lelele 14y ago
Brilliant people don't need to be brilliant in everything. You can use lesser tools and still accomplish a lot.
- hollerith 14y ago
  Or maybe they're not lesser tools.
  - lelele 14y ago
    Yes, but the set of brilliant people is larger than the set of brilliant people using the best tool in each area. We don't live in a perfect world, and brilliant people make trade-offs. Unless you know what kind of trade-offs they made, you can't generalize their choices. For instance, when Peter Norvig switched from Lisp to Python for his classes, many people argued that Python was an "acceptable Lisp". When asked about his decision, Norvig answered that Python was a better choice for his teaching goals, and nothing else. Also, let's not confuse techniques with tools. It is unfortunate that, other than modal editing which is too generic, we don't have a name for Vi-style editing which does not involve Vi, so people confuse Vi-style editing (e.g. the technique), with Vi (e.g. the tool). The tool may have its own shortcomings which render it unsuitable.

ta12121 14y ago

Does your example include the action of deleting bar with baz? Also, not having to move away from the home row makes me feel much faster. Having to use Alt/Control/Arrows makes me cry. (I know you can't avoid Control in Vim, but in this example it is not required.) ci"baz<esc> is 7 keystrokes, only one of which is a jump. <ctl-F>bar<esc>baz is 8 strokes and two jumps. It also requires typing the entire string in quotes. If the example were var foo = "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"; The vim example would not change but yours would. I'm not trying to be an a-hole, use what you like, I'm just saying, that for me the attraction to vim is the strive toward the minimization of keystrokes, especially ones that require me to move my hands.

recursive 14y ago
No, good point. You'd then have to type "baz". However, if I was actually faced with this problem, I'd use End, Ctrl + Left, Ctrl + D, baz, which is a total of 7 keystrokes. (if you don't release Ctrl) The vim example was 8 keystrokes. (" is shift + ') I have no doubt that you could manufacture an example that shows a benefit for vim, but I think that the advantages are overestimated by heavy vim users. Edit: Your longer string example is a good example of a task that's more efficient in vim.
- solutionyogi 14y ago
  I don't know why other Vim users focus on number of keystrokes. In his example, what is more important is that you are 'describing' what you want to do with text with commands. So when you have var foo1 = "bar"; var foo2 = "hello hi"; var foo3 = "when and why"; You can use the same command [cib"] to change the value assigned to foo1/foo2/foo3. You are describing your change semantically i.e. I want to change word inside the double quotes. In Sublime and other editors, it matters what the assignment is and you have to use different approach in each scenario. Frankly, as I type at 70wpm, I don't care about saving a few keystroke here and there.
- ta12121 14y ago
  I would personally dislike your example because of the use of extended keyboard keys that require repositioning the hand (End, Left).

gcb 14y ago

ctrl+f,bar,esc,ctrl+shift+right,foo i think it's easier to grab the mouse, dlb click bar, foo with vim, it's still easier than grabbing the mouse. that's the litmus test of text editor interface effectiveness. the mouse is awesome, hard to beat. so if your editor beats it, game on!

rahoulb 14y ago

As a heavy user of Sublime, Coda 2 and someone that is still getting to grips with vim, I'd say the real advantage of vim is you can do all of that over ssh with minimal keystrokes over a crappy connection.

lelele 14y ago
Actually, this is almost the scenario for which Vim's father was designed.
mixmastamyk 14y ago
You can use any editor over ssh these days. Just mount it with sshfs.
- rahoulb 14y ago
  Coda's "open quickly" is too slow to use over SSHFS (although is OK on a local network over AFP). Sublime's not too bad but it can take a while to build its file list.
- technomancy 14y ago
  Sure, but you can't do low-latency screen-sharing inside a tmux session over sshfs.