4 ms·

I would be glad to see better table saw safety mechanisms, though I'm skeptical that 1. This will actually happen 2. That patent is the only one that will wind

by jchw 2y ago

I would be glad to see better table saw safety mechanisms, though I'm skeptical that 1. This will actually happen 2. That patent is the only one that will wind up mattering. I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks when it comes to warning labels, for liability reasons. As an example, many appliances will warn that you can never operate them with the covers off and doing so can cause death or serious injury. Okay fine, sure, it's not necessarily safe, and perhaps you could indeed kill yourself by accident doing so. However, in practice it's bullshit. People do this all the time, and you pretty much have to sometimes. How the hell are you even supposed to troubleshoot without being able to see what's wrong? Just guess? So sometimes when it comes to warnings it's easy to empathize with the person who didn't take them very seriously, as we're pretty much conditioned to take warnings like this with a grain of salt. Though honestly, when it comes to using a table saw, the thing I'm actually afraid of is kickback. Amputation risk is still very serious of course, but I feel safe enough with the many layers of mitigations I already use. I don't want to fall into complacency, but I also don't think I'm going to lose sleep over not having a SawStop table saw either. (I am not using my table saw often enough for it to be a terrible concern anyways.)

GuB-42 2y ago
My grandfather is 90, he was a woodworker, he lost two fingers to a table saw. Few woodworkers of his age have 10 fingers. Workshops are much safer today and woodworkers can expect to end their career with all their fingers. That SawStop thing is one of the many things that can contribute to it. The idea that safety features cause complacency has been debunked several times. Statistically, well designed safety features or equipment reduce accidents, even if it may cause some people to get complacent. And you are right to be afraid of kickback, and one of the risks associated with kickbacks is inadvertently touching the blade, that is the issue SawStop is designed to address. The blade guard helps too, but AFAIK, there are many instances where you can't use it.
- bamboozled 2y ago
  Because as much as we know saw stop works. No one wants to actually find out if works. Disclaimer: cabinet builder.
- bradly 2y ago
  > The blade guard helps too, but AFAIK, there are many instances where you can't use it. Blade guards are rarely used in shops I've worked in. I've even worked in a shop that removed the riving knifes on their saws as they got in the way of certain cuts and they didn't want to spend time taking them on and off.
  - Implicated 2y ago
    What sort of cuts would cause you to need to remove the riving knife?
    - mym1990 2y ago
      Very beginner woodworker here, but dados(or any kind of groove are the ones that immediately come to mind. Essentially anything that has the work piece going over the blade, but not cutting through completely.
      - lukaslalinsky 2y ago
        You can keep the riving knife for those cuts, it causes no issue. just can't use the blade guard. I honestly can't imagine a cut that would require the riving knife off.
        1-more 2y ago
        Dado stack. It's a smaller diameter than the blade. You'd have to be pretty lazy to not just reinstall the riving knife when you put a normal blade back on, but I could see that happening.
        mym1990 2y ago
        I think people get complacent and if it a cut that one does fairly regularly, I could see someone saying on the 1000th cut "eh lets keep it off for this one time" and then it just becomes a thing.
        2y ago
bradly 2y ago
> I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks I've work in multiple production furniture shops and that has not been my experience. People are just moving fast, trying to get stuff done and things happen. Also, training safety in a non-educational setting is tough.
- jchw 2y ago
  Yeah, see, I actually just simply don't know what the breakdown of the 30,000 incidents per year is. I would've guessed a large number of those incidents were from hobbyists and not professionals, and I would guess that the mistakes hobbyists make are different in origin from the mistakes professionals make, even if they have common threads. If it so happens that it's actually mostly professionals losing fingers, then I'm barking up the wrong tree with this.
  - inferiorhuman 2y ago
    I'd wager the opposite. A hobbyist will typically have a healthy fear of a table saw because one of the first things someone learns about a table saw is that it will fuck you up without a moment's notice. A pro in a hurry? Not so much. It's the pro that's gonna remove the safety guard and riving knife, be invested in expensive blades they don't want to replace if the cartridge goes off accidentally, etc., etc.
    - harrall 2y ago
      I’ve also seen many hobbyists do cuts on table saws that seem to encourage danger and then they stand right in the way too. Then they complain that “no one could have predicted this.” The worst one I’ve seen is someone cutting circles on a table saw (already normally a no) with their hand behind the blade on the side that pulls you in instead of cutting (the kickback side). And it pulls his fingers right into the blade. (Saved by SawStop though.) Heathy fear does not mean they know how the saw works at all. So I’d say both sides are apt to lose fingers.
Hilift 2y ago
> I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks when it comes to warning labels Chainsaws have about the same number of annual ER visits as table saws. It's common to see someone using a chainsaw without most of the recommended safety gear. In those cases, it's probably money.

by jchw 2y ago

GuB-42 2y ago

My grandfather is 90, he was a woodworker, he lost two fingers to a table saw. Few woodworkers of his age have 10 fingers. Workshops are much safer today and woodworkers can expect to end their career with all their fingers. That SawStop thing is one of the many things that can contribute to it. The idea that safety features cause complacency has been debunked several times. Statistically, well designed safety features or equipment reduce accidents, even if it may cause some people to get complacent. And you are right to be afraid of kickback, and one of the risks associated with kickbacks is inadvertently touching the blade, that is the issue SawStop is designed to address. The blade guard helps too, but AFAIK, there are many instances where you can't use it.

bamboozled 2y ago
Because as much as we know saw stop works. No one wants to actually find out if works. Disclaimer: cabinet builder.
bradly 2y ago
> The blade guard helps too, but AFAIK, there are many instances where you can't use it. Blade guards are rarely used in shops I've worked in. I've even worked in a shop that removed the riving knifes on their saws as they got in the way of certain cuts and they didn't want to spend time taking them on and off.
- Implicated 2y ago
  What sort of cuts would cause you to need to remove the riving knife?
  - mym1990 2y ago
    Very beginner woodworker here, but dados(or any kind of groove are the ones that immediately come to mind. Essentially anything that has the work piece going over the blade, but not cutting through completely.
    - lukaslalinsky 2y ago
      You can keep the riving knife for those cuts, it causes no issue. just can't use the blade guard. I honestly can't imagine a cut that would require the riving knife off.
      - 1-more 2y ago
        Dado stack. It's a smaller diameter than the blade. You'd have to be pretty lazy to not just reinstall the riving knife when you put a normal blade back on, but I could see that happening.
        mym1990 2y ago
        I think people get complacent and if it a cut that one does fairly regularly, I could see someone saying on the 1000th cut "eh lets keep it off for this one time" and then it just becomes a thing.
      - 2y ago

bradly 2y ago

> I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks I've work in multiple production furniture shops and that has not been my experience. People are just moving fast, trying to get stuff done and things happen. Also, training safety in a non-educational setting is tough.

jchw 2y ago
Yeah, see, I actually just simply don't know what the breakdown of the 30,000 incidents per year is. I would've guessed a large number of those incidents were from hobbyists and not professionals, and I would guess that the mistakes hobbyists make are different in origin from the mistakes professionals make, even if they have common threads. If it so happens that it's actually mostly professionals losing fingers, then I'm barking up the wrong tree with this.
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  I'd wager the opposite. A hobbyist will typically have a healthy fear of a table saw because one of the first things someone learns about a table saw is that it will fuck you up without a moment's notice. A pro in a hurry? Not so much. It's the pro that's gonna remove the safety guard and riving knife, be invested in expensive blades they don't want to replace if the cartridge goes off accidentally, etc., etc.
  - harrall 2y ago
    I’ve also seen many hobbyists do cuts on table saws that seem to encourage danger and then they stand right in the way too. Then they complain that “no one could have predicted this.” The worst one I’ve seen is someone cutting circles on a table saw (already normally a no) with their hand behind the blade on the side that pulls you in instead of cutting (the kickback side). And it pulls his fingers right into the blade. (Saved by SawStop though.) Heathy fear does not mean they know how the saw works at all. So I’d say both sides are apt to lose fingers.

Hilift 2y ago

> I can't help but wonder if a big part of the reason the number of incidents is so high is because we're intentionally hyperbolic about risks when it comes to warning labels Chainsaws have about the same number of annual ER visits as table saws. It's common to see someone using a chainsaw without most of the recommended safety gear. In those cases, it's probably money.