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The saw manufacturers all blew off SawStop because they were worried that they would now be liable for any injuries which still occurred. Simply make table saw

by bsder 2y ago

The saw manufacturers all blew off SawStop because they were worried that they would now be liable for any injuries which still occurred. Simply make table saw manufacturers liable for any injury from the saw and this kind of mechanism will instantly become default.

Animats 2y ago
Yes, they did. They even tried to legislate against SawStop. See "H.R. 8181: Preserving Woodworking Traditions and Blocking Government-Mandated Monopolies Act"[1] Didn't go anywhere. There is supposedly woodworker opposition.[2] "Many woodworkers argue that the implementation of SawStop technology has disrupted traditional woodworking practices. Some feel that it has altered the craft in a negative way by making it less reliant on skill and attentiveness, instead placing an emphasis on technology to prevent accidents. This shift in focus is seen as a departure from the fundamental principles and values of woodworking." However, no actual woodworkers are quoted, and the author has a tool store, so this is probably astroturf PR. That web site is addressed to people with a semi-religious attitude towards woodworking, not to working carpenters or cabinetmakers. (Having used circular wood saws, I am all in favor of blade-stop devices.) [1] https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr8181/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr8181/text [2] https://www.woodworkcenter.com/why-do-woodworkers-hate-the-inventor-of-sawstop/ https://www.woodworkcenter.com/why-do-woodworkers-hate-the-i...
- bawolff 2y ago
  > "Many woodworkers argue that the implementation of SawStop technology has disrupted traditional woodworking practices. Some feel that it has altered the craft in a negative way by making it less reliant on skill and attentiveness, instead placing an emphasis on technology to prevent accidents. This shift in focus is seen as a departure from the fundamental principles and values of woodworking." Wow. This is basically: real men enjoy getting their fingers cut off.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    Ideologically speaking, it's the same sort of people that opposed seat belt laws in the 1980s on the grounds that they'd encourage risky behavior by drivers. (They don't.)
- DannyBee 2y ago
  #2 is becuase woodworkers as a group are fairly conservative. TTI and friends were very effective at riling them up. I belong to a number of significant woodworking forums/etc, and have watched the manipulation over the years firsthand. This was mostly in the form of "big daddy government wants to make you pay for more saws because of dumb people", so the take they have there around the craft itself is pretty funny.
- bagels 2y ago
  It's so silly. The saw stop doesn't reduce the amount of skill needed to use it, and you're still free to be as attentive as you like. If they really followed this to its logical conclusion, they'd be using unpowered stone tools to do woodworking.
dyauspitr 2y ago
That’s terrible though. You can’t make knife manufacturers responsible for everything a knife does.
- bawolff 2y ago
  I think the idea is that if someone advertizes their saw as safe, but it isn't, then there should be some liability. Like if you make a fake safety saw or imply its much more safe than it actually is you should get in trouble. But surely there must be some middle ground between a company making a fake safety saw, and a good faith effort that isn't quite perfect.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    I don’t think any saw manufacturer says anything about their safety besides warning you about not using the riving knife and blade guard.
    - krisoft 2y ago
      We are getting confused here. The claim was "The saw manufacturers all blew off SawStop because they were worried that they would now be liable for any injuries which still occurred." Meaning that table saw manufacturers were worried if they implement SawStop like safety feature, and they advertise their saws as safer they become liable for times when the technology does not work. So yes, you appear to be correct what saw manufacturers say about their safety now, but that's not the point we are discussing. The point is that if they add a SawStop like feature and advertise it then they would be talking about the safety of their saws.
- lazide 2y ago
  People still try, and depending on the public’s mood sometimes it sticks.
- bsder 2y ago
  The difference between the accidental damage a knife can do versus what a circular saw can do is night and day. And I say this as someone who needed surgery after cutting through a tendon with a knife. :( Old school radial saws, for example, basically don't exist anymore at the consumer level. They were simply too dangerous. Slider-type miter saws have almost completely replaced them. Personally, I would even go so far as to suggest that weekend woodworkers should avoid even having a table saw, period. The main problem with table saws is that they become a "do all" machine even for those kinds of actions that really shouldn't be done on it. You're already at the table saw, and it's often really convenient to just "sorta kinda" bodge something up on the table saw rather than doing the safe thing and changing the blade, putting together a real jig or using a completely different tool. If you have a track saw or a cheap CNC instead, the danger level is way, way lower, and the result is probably a lot better.

by bsder 2y ago

Animats 2y ago

Yes, they did. They even tried to legislate against SawStop. See "H.R. 8181: Preserving Woodworking Traditions and Blocking Government-Mandated Monopolies Act"[1] Didn't go anywhere. There is supposedly woodworker opposition.[2] "Many woodworkers argue that the implementation of SawStop technology has disrupted traditional woodworking practices. Some feel that it has altered the craft in a negative way by making it less reliant on skill and attentiveness, instead placing an emphasis on technology to prevent accidents. This shift in focus is seen as a departure from the fundamental principles and values of woodworking." However, no actual woodworkers are quoted, and the author has a tool store, so this is probably astroturf PR. That web site is addressed to people with a semi-religious attitude towards woodworking, not to working carpenters or cabinetmakers. (Having used circular wood saws, I am all in favor of blade-stop devices.) [1] https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr8181/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/hr8181/text [2] https://www.woodworkcenter.com/why-do-woodworkers-hate-the-inventor-of-sawstop/ https://www.woodworkcenter.com/why-do-woodworkers-hate-the-i...

bawolff 2y ago
> "Many woodworkers argue that the implementation of SawStop technology has disrupted traditional woodworking practices. Some feel that it has altered the craft in a negative way by making it less reliant on skill and attentiveness, instead placing an emphasis on technology to prevent accidents. This shift in focus is seen as a departure from the fundamental principles and values of woodworking." Wow. This is basically: real men enjoy getting their fingers cut off.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  Ideologically speaking, it's the same sort of people that opposed seat belt laws in the 1980s on the grounds that they'd encourage risky behavior by drivers. (They don't.)
DannyBee 2y ago
#2 is becuase woodworkers as a group are fairly conservative. TTI and friends were very effective at riling them up. I belong to a number of significant woodworking forums/etc, and have watched the manipulation over the years firsthand. This was mostly in the form of "big daddy government wants to make you pay for more saws because of dumb people", so the take they have there around the craft itself is pretty funny.
bagels 2y ago
It's so silly. The saw stop doesn't reduce the amount of skill needed to use it, and you're still free to be as attentive as you like. If they really followed this to its logical conclusion, they'd be using unpowered stone tools to do woodworking.

dyauspitr 2y ago

That’s terrible though. You can’t make knife manufacturers responsible for everything a knife does.

bawolff 2y ago
I think the idea is that if someone advertizes their saw as safe, but it isn't, then there should be some liability. Like if you make a fake safety saw or imply its much more safe than it actually is you should get in trouble. But surely there must be some middle ground between a company making a fake safety saw, and a good faith effort that isn't quite perfect.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  I don’t think any saw manufacturer says anything about their safety besides warning you about not using the riving knife and blade guard.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    We are getting confused here. The claim was "The saw manufacturers all blew off SawStop because they were worried that they would now be liable for any injuries which still occurred." Meaning that table saw manufacturers were worried if they implement SawStop like safety feature, and they advertise their saws as safer they become liable for times when the technology does not work. So yes, you appear to be correct what saw manufacturers say about their safety now, but that's not the point we are discussing. The point is that if they add a SawStop like feature and advertise it then they would be talking about the safety of their saws.
lazide 2y ago
People still try, and depending on the public’s mood sometimes it sticks.
bsder 2y ago
The difference between the accidental damage a knife can do versus what a circular saw can do is night and day. And I say this as someone who needed surgery after cutting through a tendon with a knife. :( Old school radial saws, for example, basically don't exist anymore at the consumer level. They were simply too dangerous. Slider-type miter saws have almost completely replaced them. Personally, I would even go so far as to suggest that weekend woodworkers should avoid even having a table saw, period. The main problem with table saws is that they become a "do all" machine even for those kinds of actions that really shouldn't be done on it. You're already at the table saw, and it's often really convenient to just "sorta kinda" bodge something up on the table saw rather than doing the safe thing and changing the blade, putting together a real jig or using a completely different tool. If you have a track saw or a cheap CNC instead, the danger level is way, way lower, and the result is probably a lot better.