5 ms·

That author sounds like he has an axe to grind. What did Ballmer/MS do to "throw Nokia under the bus"?

by bcbrown 14y ago

Geee 14y ago
Osborne'd Nokia's whole product line-up with the WP 8 announcement. Nokia's devices don't receive updates.
- huherto 14y ago
  "Osborne'd"? Sorry what is that? ok, got it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
- sp332 14y ago
  As an owner of a Lumia 900, I have been confused for the past month or so by people telling me that I should be disappointed that I won't get WP8. WP8 is not an upgrade over WP7, it's a whole new OS (new kernel and everything). So I am not surprised or disappointed that the phone I bought will continue to work the same way, instead of getting who-knows-what changes with an update.
  - bergie 14y ago
    I guess the disappointment will hit if it turns out new WP8 apps won't run on WP7 devices.
    - jinushaun 14y ago
      There is no if. WP8 apps won't run on WP7 devices. Binary incompatible.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  For the WP7 versus 8 thing, there is a fundamental underpinning change from a Windows CE kernel to the Windows 8 kernel. This is an important change as it means that apps for the phone platform will have commonality with other Microsoft platforms rather than being their own silo. Microsoft needed to make this change, and the sooner the better. But of course compatibility is lost in the process. As for updating the phones, the ARM embedded platform has a bewildering array of SOCs and doesn't have platform commonality like there is for x86. You can see how in the Linux world they keep trying to reduce the number of kernels needed (last I read was around 5) and then GPU support also has issues (binary blobs). I suspect it is far too much development effort to add the platform and driver support for existing WP7 phones. The best thing Microsoft could do is provide an upgrade program for the early adopters, but not announce details in advance. One important bit of the initial iPhone was realising that there was no need for a constrained software platform, and instead using a Unix kernel and user space. Platforms like RIM's, Windows CE, Symbian, PalmOS etc were all focussed on being in a very constrained environment (memory, CPU). They jumped through hoops in the name of efficiency and made application developers do the same. iOS is profligate, with kernel commonality with MacOS, wasting huge amounts of CPU and memory by comparison. But that doesn't really matter because there are hundreds of megahertz and megabytes of memory then and gigas of both now. You can take advantage of them to provide a far superior user experience and developer experience. And that is what matters these days.
  - bergie 14y ago
    As for updating the phones, the ARM embedded platform has a bewildering array of SOCs I thought only Qualcomm SoCs (or just a particular SoC?) was certified for running WP7? That doesn't sound like a bewildering array. From http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011/05/20/nokia-to-use-st-ericsson-u8500-soc-for-its-windows-phone-8-devices/ http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011/05/20/nokia-to-use-st-er... As you already know Qualcomm is the only certified SoC manufacturer for Windows Phone 7
    - rogerbinns 14y ago
      My quoted statement is true - I didn't mean to imply that WP7 is supported on a wide variety and it is effectively just one small family. But I believe Windows 8 hasn't been ported to that SOC, and making each ARM port is significantly more effort (especially logistical) than x86. Windows CE drivers won't work, so they'd essentially have to do most drivers from scratch. And such a port would only be pertinent to the "legacy" installed base of WP7, and not to the shiny tablets Microsoft is obsessed with today. More accurately this is what I think Microsoft would have to do in order to provide a WP7 upgrade: * Reimplement drivers for the SOCs and other hardware used * Provide a compatible system initialization mechanism (aka boot loader). Note "secure" UEFI being used for Windows 8 but not WP7. * Provide an upgrader program that downloads your data, wipes the device and puts the new operating system back on with a close to zero chance of bricking should anything go wrong during the process. (This is very hard.) * Put your data back onto the device, including conversion of file formats where the app implementation is different between WP7 and WP8. * Ensure reasonable continuity of system apps between WP7 and WP8 * Refund all app purchases since WP7 apps won't work on WP8 (or store credit) * Implement a DRM mechanism compatible with WP7 content * Do lots of testing to make sure the OS and apps don't break in the more constrained hardware of WP7 devices which predate WP8 hardware specs by about two years. This is a huge amount of work for little reward. In their shoes once WP8 is released and devices available then I'd go to existing WP7 owners and provide a simple upgrade path (eg trade in your device and get $200 credit to a WP8 device). But I wouldn't announce this in advance otherwise people would take advantage of it.
      - 14y ago
milesskorpen 14y ago
Lots of people seem to think that, because Elop came from Microsoft, he was a plant to take down Nokia. Pretty ridiculous, but I think it appeals to Nokia loyalists—gives them someone (else) to blame for the collapse.

That author sounds like he has an axe to grind. What did Ballmer/MS do to "throw Nokia under the bus"?

by bcbrown 14y ago

That author sounds like he has an axe to grind. What did Ballmer/MS do to "throw Nokia under the bus"?

Geee 14y ago

Osborne'd Nokia's whole product line-up with the WP 8 announcement. Nokia's devices don't receive updates.

huherto 14y ago
"Osborne'd"? Sorry what is that? ok, got it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
sp332 14y ago
As an owner of a Lumia 900, I have been confused for the past month or so by people telling me that I should be disappointed that I won't get WP8. WP8 is not an upgrade over WP7, it's a whole new OS (new kernel and everything). So I am not surprised or disappointed that the phone I bought will continue to work the same way, instead of getting who-knows-what changes with an update.
- bergie 14y ago
  I guess the disappointment will hit if it turns out new WP8 apps won't run on WP7 devices.
  - jinushaun 14y ago
    There is no if. WP8 apps won't run on WP7 devices. Binary incompatible.
rogerbinns 14y ago
For the WP7 versus 8 thing, there is a fundamental underpinning change from a Windows CE kernel to the Windows 8 kernel. This is an important change as it means that apps for the phone platform will have commonality with other Microsoft platforms rather than being their own silo. Microsoft needed to make this change, and the sooner the better. But of course compatibility is lost in the process. As for updating the phones, the ARM embedded platform has a bewildering array of SOCs and doesn't have platform commonality like there is for x86. You can see how in the Linux world they keep trying to reduce the number of kernels needed (last I read was around 5) and then GPU support also has issues (binary blobs). I suspect it is far too much development effort to add the platform and driver support for existing WP7 phones. The best thing Microsoft could do is provide an upgrade program for the early adopters, but not announce details in advance. One important bit of the initial iPhone was realising that there was no need for a constrained software platform, and instead using a Unix kernel and user space. Platforms like RIM's, Windows CE, Symbian, PalmOS etc were all focussed on being in a very constrained environment (memory, CPU). They jumped through hoops in the name of efficiency and made application developers do the same. iOS is profligate, with kernel commonality with MacOS, wasting huge amounts of CPU and memory by comparison. But that doesn't really matter because there are hundreds of megahertz and megabytes of memory then and gigas of both now. You can take advantage of them to provide a far superior user experience and developer experience. And that is what matters these days.
- bergie 14y ago
  As for updating the phones, the ARM embedded platform has a bewildering array of SOCs I thought only Qualcomm SoCs (or just a particular SoC?) was certified for running WP7? That doesn't sound like a bewildering array. From http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011/05/20/nokia-to-use-st-ericsson-u8500-soc-for-its-windows-phone-8-devices/ http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011/05/20/nokia-to-use-st-er... As you already know Qualcomm is the only certified SoC manufacturer for Windows Phone 7
  - rogerbinns 14y ago
    My quoted statement is true - I didn't mean to imply that WP7 is supported on a wide variety and it is effectively just one small family. But I believe Windows 8 hasn't been ported to that SOC, and making each ARM port is significantly more effort (especially logistical) than x86. Windows CE drivers won't work, so they'd essentially have to do most drivers from scratch. And such a port would only be pertinent to the "legacy" installed base of WP7, and not to the shiny tablets Microsoft is obsessed with today. More accurately this is what I think Microsoft would have to do in order to provide a WP7 upgrade: * Reimplement drivers for the SOCs and other hardware used * Provide a compatible system initialization mechanism (aka boot loader). Note "secure" UEFI being used for Windows 8 but not WP7. * Provide an upgrader program that downloads your data, wipes the device and puts the new operating system back on with a close to zero chance of bricking should anything go wrong during the process. (This is very hard.) * Put your data back onto the device, including conversion of file formats where the app implementation is different between WP7 and WP8. * Ensure reasonable continuity of system apps between WP7 and WP8 * Refund all app purchases since WP7 apps won't work on WP8 (or store credit) * Implement a DRM mechanism compatible with WP7 content * Do lots of testing to make sure the OS and apps don't break in the more constrained hardware of WP7 devices which predate WP8 hardware specs by about two years. This is a huge amount of work for little reward. In their shoes once WP8 is released and devices available then I'd go to existing WP7 owners and provide a simple upgrade path (eg trade in your device and get $200 credit to a WP8 device). But I wouldn't announce this in advance otherwise people would take advantage of it.
    - 14y ago

milesskorpen 14y ago

Lots of people seem to think that, because Elop came from Microsoft, he was a plant to take down Nokia. Pretty ridiculous, but I think it appeals to Nokia loyalists—gives them someone (else) to blame for the collapse.