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> Why aren't there multiple USB ports? By now why don't all phones use USB-3? Why isn't there general purpose D/A and A/D ports/outputs for instrumentation? Why

> Why aren't there multiple USB ports? By now why don't all phones use USB-3? Why isn't there general purpose D/A and A/D ports/outputs for instrumentation? Why don't they include a GPIB-like bus to connect to things? Why can't we use the screen as an oscilloscope with a bandwidth of say 100MHz? Because the population of people that would actually use that functionality rounds to approximately 0. There do exist phones with multiple USB ports, and there do exist plenty of USB3 capable phones. Instrumentation and measurement is an extremely specialized field, and the number of people that would maybe find use out of it would quickly switch to a more useful interface for something like an oscilloscope. For your general purpose adc and dac, they already make one: it’s called a usb-c audio adapter.

hilbert42 2y ago
"Because the population of people that would actually use that functionality rounds to approximately 0." How can you say that, where are your figures/stats/evidence? For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Clearly you don't work in test and measurement. Moreover, this article alone has raised the matter of additional features. Anyway, it's only a matter of time until some (likely small) manufacturer breaks the boring mold and steps out. That's inevitable because the market is already saturated with phones that all have exactly the same features.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  > For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Clearly you don't work in test and measurement. I said approximately 0, when compared to smartphone sales… which it is. I don’t need a survey to know that, since the vast vast vast majority of people using phones don’t even know what an oscilloscope, a DAC, or an ADC is. If you think that’s untrue, I’d suggest widening your horizons a bit. Also, I’d think that you don’t work in test and measurement. I use test equipment in my day job and I wouldn’t trust the output of a phone if I’m doing actual production work. You need calibrated equipment for that. Maybe okay for debugging, but there’s tons of cheap measurement equipment that works just fine for general purpose debugging and has a much better UI than anything you’d get on a touch screen.
  - tanewishly 2y ago
    To expand upon that point: a new feature for smartphones that really takes off has to fall in one of two categories: 1. so incredibly convenient to always have with you, that everyone's willing to overlook shortcomings compared to dedicated equipment. Prime example: camera. 2. Offer a new type of use that is widely considered desirable. Example: mobile access to Internet. Most use cases either cater to too few people and/or fall into the category "those who'd really care, already have dedicated equipment which is better". With flagship phones costing more and more, that equipment is probably also cheaper - or, at least, is price tag is not that outlandish. Even replacing laptops probably won't catch on, simply because companies can easily provide a good laptop for half the price of a flagship phone (if not less). So they're not going to facilitate that. And if the boss isn't on board, would you want to use your own private phone as your primary work laptop?
    - benj111 2y ago
      Does it have to take off though? The GP seems to be basically saying the same thing as many others have expressed. They want their phone to basically be a PC. Whether that involves upgrading, installing your own OS, or otherwise just being able to use it for an arbitrary workload. I don't know why the market is such, that expensive phones remove features, such as extra sim card slots, sd card slots or head phone jacks. It doesn't seem impossible that Samsung could find room in their lineup of 8000 phones to have a ruggedised phone, with some kind of standardised interface on the back. especially, as increasingly you go to a restaurant and the waiter has a phone/ tablet. and I'm sure there are many other industries that could do with basically a phone, that does one extra specialised thing, be that an rfid scanner, or a bore scope, or a label printer.
      - kolinko 2y ago
        Why have these features built in if you can have a usb back case/device with them? There are many back cases for specialised functionality like PoS, Ir camera etc. Also, with many cases you can have devices connecting wirelessly via bluetooth - e.g. I bought a bluetooth trichiscope recently. Making a specialised phone instead of a plugin is a way more expensive option. And in risky if the market is so small that nobody did a plugin first. There were I think two companies that tried to build a modular phone where you could eg replace camera with a module of your own design - the issue was that they were bulkier and more expensive than a regular design - you can’t cheat physics. Also, how much more would you be willing to pay for such a phone? Could you pay 2-3x the price and be happy with upgrades every 3-5 years, and the phone having electronics that are 1-3 years behind the top of the line ones on the start? Because that’s the reality of production with niche products.
- orf 2y ago
  > For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone Of all the people you interacted with in any way, shape or form this year, what percentage of those would benefit from this? It rounds to 0, assuming you’re not a shut-in
  - grahamj 2y ago
    If they're a shut-in it definitely rounds to zero
    - kruxigt 2y ago
      [dead]
    - worthless-trash 2y ago
      Everything rounds to zero on a big enough scale.
  - ksp-atlas 2y ago
    Wouldn't any percentage below 50% round to zero?
    - orf 2y ago
      No, obviously not.
      - lores 2y ago
        It does, to -2 decimal places :)
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    The point you are making is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with my point which is what I want as features on my phone. Whether manufacturers make them or how many other people may want the same as I do is a separate issue. What phone do you use now and are you satisfied with it? Tell me that and I may be able to then figure where you are coming from. BTW, read my comment to f6v.
- f6v 2y ago
  > And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Children who play Fortnite on the go are a much bigger market and will always be. Smartphones are content consumption devices.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    "Smartphones are content consumption devices." The point I put forward is what I and a small select section of the market wants as features—NOT what's on offer from manufacturers now. The argument people are putting here is that manufacturers would not serve that market. These are two separate issues. Isn't that clear? When someone makes what I want then I'll buy it. BTW, I've not suggested anything that cannot be made now with existing technology. Instead, manufacturers are removing important features such as not including FM radio and 3.5mm headphone sockets. These are the first two specs I look for on a phone before I buy it. If they're not included I'm not interested. Full stop! In brief, the lowest common denominator is NOT what I want. The market has to be more diverse. That in part is what the article is about and why I commented.
    - david-gpu 2y ago
      The tiny minority of people who want this do not form a market large enough to bear the amortized engineering and manufacturing cost of adding those niche features. Imagine somebody asking for phones that have a built-in Swiss army knife because there is a (tiny) segment of the market who would benefit from it. Before it makes sense to integrate these features to the phone, you would expect to see a thriving ecosystem of third-party external dongles providing the same, for example. The market is not more diverse because there is no money to be made by making it more diverse. You underestimate the cost just as much as you overestimate the size of the market segment that wants those features.
      - hilbert42 2y ago
        "The tiny minority of people who want this do not form a market large enough to bear the amortized engineering and manufacturing cost of adding those niche features" I beg to differ, Fairphone thinks it's economically viable to make phones that are upgradeable by changing modules. The company is doing it now! All I want is a spare slot inside one of these phones that I can insert a specialized module. There would be no problem in getting specialized manufacturers to make those modules, witness the fact that there are already thousands of small modular devices on the market already. If Fairphone were to provide a slot I'm damn sure there'd be call to use it. Think Raspberry Pi and all its ports, just transfer the concept to a phone that's almost suitable now.
ianburrell 2y ago
Also, there is a small market for people who don't want a laptop. Or a Raspberry Pi. I bet a Pi with display would make a better if slightly larger. It is also strange to complain about multiple ports when can get a USB-C hub. It used to be they were all USB-C to USB-A but there are starting to USB-C only hubs.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "It is also strange to complain about multiple ports when can get a USB-C hub" First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external devices via OTG is often set deliberately to time out after say 30 mins or such, also on many devices permission to access OTG is awkward, and the vast majority of phones do not support NTFS for external drives or internal SD cards. Frankly, is this is a first-class fucking nuisance. Why can't I have direct compatibility with my PCs and laptops? To get my phones to do what I want I have to root them and even this isn't fully satisfactory. Rooting is a pain and takes a lot of time to do it correctly and I'd prefer not to do it With OTC there is no consistency across phone manufacturers. Why the hell not? Also, why are phone manufacturers removing micro SD slots from phones? More on NTFS, why doesn't Android support NTFS after all this length of time? After all, the Linux kernel now does and has done so for some time, so why has Google nuked it from the Android kernel? Now if I go to that despised Chinese company Huawei I can get NTFS support by default (on OTG at least). That Huawei can offer NTFS as a standard feature and most others do not tells me a lot about the oligopoly-like smartphone market. People here have been criticizing me and voting me down because I've had the hide to suggest features for specialized phones but no one seems to bother addressing the elephant in the room which is that the smartphone market has reached stagnation. There's been fuck-all worthwhile innovation in recent years.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    > First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. First, multiple USB ports are bulky, and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about. I don't need an extra port for the majority of my uses. > Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external devices via OTG is often set deliberately to time out after say 30 mins or such, also on many devices permission to access OTG is awkward, and the vast majority of phones do not support NTFS for external drives or internal SD cards. The timeouts are for idle time. If you have a long period of idle time, you aren't using the device... which consumes power from your tiny phone battery. It's very reasonable for the uses most people use them for. I'd agree it would be nice to have the ability to disable the timeout, but I can't speak to what every phone manufacturer is doing. > More on NTFS, why doesn't Android support NTFS after all this length of time? After all, the Linux kernel now does and has done so for some time, so why has Google nuked it from the Android kernel? What's wrong with exFAT? It's an external hard drive. Better compatibility with everything anyways. > People here have been criticizing me and voting me down because I've had the hide to suggest features for specialized phones but no one seems to bother addressing the elephant in the room which is that the smartphone market has reached stagnation. And what exactly is wrong with that? Laptops also haven't had "innovation" in the sense you're describing in years either. They serve their purpose, do what they do well, and get marginally better year over year. It's fine.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
There's fantastically few phones with multiple USB ports. Some of the Lenovo Legion gaming handhelds are the only ones I can think of. But we are seeing some signs this might change. And insure hope it does, in a big way. A hub can be ok, but with the need to mix display out & peripherals and power, in fancy ways, USB3 really is a limited option. And alas USB4 fixes many of the constraints but is way too high end alas alas alas. Anyways here's an upcoming very cheap tablet with multiple ports, and reports are a lot more are coming. Given the marginal cost of ports, it's about frelling time! Do it! You won't ever have adoption if there's no (or almost no) option! https://www.techradar.com/pro/this-tablet-has-a-genius-feature-i-want-every-vendor-to-copy-a-second-usb-c-port-that-allows-you-to-display-content-on-an-external-screen https://www.techradar.com/pro/this-tablet-has-a-genius-featu...
astrange 2y ago
> Why isn't there general purpose D/A and A/D ports/outputs for instrumentation? There is one, it's the headphone jack. (Or dongle.)
- hilbert42 2y ago
  Not useful, it's dedicated. You missed my point.
  - astrange 2y ago
    Is that autocorrect? Because I have no idea what dedicated means here. It's obviously useful, that's how Square launched their card reader business.
    - hoseja 2y ago
      Can you access the ADC in a non-audio context? If not then it's dedicated to audio. The Square reader is like a telephone modem, presumably some app then listens to the "microphone"?
nrclark 2y ago
A small correction here: 90%+ of audio I/O ports aren't general-purpose. This is because there are almost always DC-blocker circuits on each output, commonly a series capacitor. With very few exceptions, you can't use your soundcard to provide an accurate DC output such as a control voltage.

hilbert42 2y ago

"Because the population of people that would actually use that functionality rounds to approximately 0." How can you say that, where are your figures/stats/evidence? For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Clearly you don't work in test and measurement. Moreover, this article alone has raised the matter of additional features. Anyway, it's only a matter of time until some (likely small) manufacturer breaks the boring mold and steps out. That's inevitable because the market is already saturated with phones that all have exactly the same features.

Kirby64 2y ago
> For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Clearly you don't work in test and measurement. I said approximately 0, when compared to smartphone sales… which it is. I don’t need a survey to know that, since the vast vast vast majority of people using phones don’t even know what an oscilloscope, a DAC, or an ADC is. If you think that’s untrue, I’d suggest widening your horizons a bit. Also, I’d think that you don’t work in test and measurement. I use test equipment in my day job and I wouldn’t trust the output of a phone if I’m doing actual production work. You need calibrated equipment for that. Maybe okay for debugging, but there’s tons of cheap measurement equipment that works just fine for general purpose debugging and has a much better UI than anything you’d get on a touch screen.
- tanewishly 2y ago
  To expand upon that point: a new feature for smartphones that really takes off has to fall in one of two categories: 1. so incredibly convenient to always have with you, that everyone's willing to overlook shortcomings compared to dedicated equipment. Prime example: camera. 2. Offer a new type of use that is widely considered desirable. Example: mobile access to Internet. Most use cases either cater to too few people and/or fall into the category "those who'd really care, already have dedicated equipment which is better". With flagship phones costing more and more, that equipment is probably also cheaper - or, at least, is price tag is not that outlandish. Even replacing laptops probably won't catch on, simply because companies can easily provide a good laptop for half the price of a flagship phone (if not less). So they're not going to facilitate that. And if the boss isn't on board, would you want to use your own private phone as your primary work laptop?
  - benj111 2y ago
    Does it have to take off though? The GP seems to be basically saying the same thing as many others have expressed. They want their phone to basically be a PC. Whether that involves upgrading, installing your own OS, or otherwise just being able to use it for an arbitrary workload. I don't know why the market is such, that expensive phones remove features, such as extra sim card slots, sd card slots or head phone jacks. It doesn't seem impossible that Samsung could find room in their lineup of 8000 phones to have a ruggedised phone, with some kind of standardised interface on the back. especially, as increasingly you go to a restaurant and the waiter has a phone/ tablet. and I'm sure there are many other industries that could do with basically a phone, that does one extra specialised thing, be that an rfid scanner, or a bore scope, or a label printer.
    - kolinko 2y ago
      Why have these features built in if you can have a usb back case/device with them? There are many back cases for specialised functionality like PoS, Ir camera etc. Also, with many cases you can have devices connecting wirelessly via bluetooth - e.g. I bought a bluetooth trichiscope recently. Making a specialised phone instead of a plugin is a way more expensive option. And in risky if the market is so small that nobody did a plugin first. There were I think two companies that tried to build a modular phone where you could eg replace camera with a module of your own design - the issue was that they were bulkier and more expensive than a regular design - you can’t cheat physics. Also, how much more would you be willing to pay for such a phone? Could you pay 2-3x the price and be happy with upgrades every 3-5 years, and the phone having electronics that are 1-3 years behind the top of the line ones on the start? Because that’s the reality of production with niche products.
orf 2y ago
> For starters I'm 1 person, so the market is not O. And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone Of all the people you interacted with in any way, shape or form this year, what percentage of those would benefit from this? It rounds to 0, assuming you’re not a shut-in
- grahamj 2y ago
  If they're a shut-in it definitely rounds to zero
  - kruxigt 2y ago
    [dead]
  - worthless-trash 2y ago
    Everything rounds to zero on a big enough scale.
- ksp-atlas 2y ago
  Wouldn't any percentage below 50% round to zero?
  - orf 2y ago
    No, obviously not.
    - lores 2y ago
      It does, to -2 decimal places :)
- hilbert42 2y ago
  The point you are making is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with my point which is what I want as features on my phone. Whether manufacturers make them or how many other people may want the same as I do is a separate issue. What phone do you use now and are you satisfied with it? Tell me that and I may be able to then figure where you are coming from. BTW, read my comment to f6v.
f6v 2y ago
> And I know of others, and I know I'm not alone. Children who play Fortnite on the go are a much bigger market and will always be. Smartphones are content consumption devices.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  "Smartphones are content consumption devices." The point I put forward is what I and a small select section of the market wants as features—NOT what's on offer from manufacturers now. The argument people are putting here is that manufacturers would not serve that market. These are two separate issues. Isn't that clear? When someone makes what I want then I'll buy it. BTW, I've not suggested anything that cannot be made now with existing technology. Instead, manufacturers are removing important features such as not including FM radio and 3.5mm headphone sockets. These are the first two specs I look for on a phone before I buy it. If they're not included I'm not interested. Full stop! In brief, the lowest common denominator is NOT what I want. The market has to be more diverse. That in part is what the article is about and why I commented.
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    The tiny minority of people who want this do not form a market large enough to bear the amortized engineering and manufacturing cost of adding those niche features. Imagine somebody asking for phones that have a built-in Swiss army knife because there is a (tiny) segment of the market who would benefit from it. Before it makes sense to integrate these features to the phone, you would expect to see a thriving ecosystem of third-party external dongles providing the same, for example. The market is not more diverse because there is no money to be made by making it more diverse. You underestimate the cost just as much as you overestimate the size of the market segment that wants those features.
    - hilbert42 2y ago
      "The tiny minority of people who want this do not form a market large enough to bear the amortized engineering and manufacturing cost of adding those niche features" I beg to differ, Fairphone thinks it's economically viable to make phones that are upgradeable by changing modules. The company is doing it now! All I want is a spare slot inside one of these phones that I can insert a specialized module. There would be no problem in getting specialized manufacturers to make those modules, witness the fact that there are already thousands of small modular devices on the market already. If Fairphone were to provide a slot I'm damn sure there'd be call to use it. Think Raspberry Pi and all its ports, just transfer the concept to a phone that's almost suitable now.

ianburrell 2y ago

Also, there is a small market for people who don't want a laptop. Or a Raspberry Pi. I bet a Pi with display would make a better if slightly larger. It is also strange to complain about multiple ports when can get a USB-C hub. It used to be they were all USB-C to USB-A but there are starting to USB-C only hubs.

hilbert42 2y ago
"It is also strange to complain about multiple ports when can get a USB-C hub" First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external devices via OTG is often set deliberately to time out after say 30 mins or such, also on many devices permission to access OTG is awkward, and the vast majority of phones do not support NTFS for external drives or internal SD cards. Frankly, is this is a first-class fucking nuisance. Why can't I have direct compatibility with my PCs and laptops? To get my phones to do what I want I have to root them and even this isn't fully satisfactory. Rooting is a pain and takes a lot of time to do it correctly and I'd prefer not to do it With OTC there is no consistency across phone manufacturers. Why the hell not? Also, why are phone manufacturers removing micro SD slots from phones? More on NTFS, why doesn't Android support NTFS after all this length of time? After all, the Linux kernel now does and has done so for some time, so why has Google nuked it from the Android kernel? Now if I go to that despised Chinese company Huawei I can get NTFS support by default (on OTG at least). That Huawei can offer NTFS as a standard feature and most others do not tells me a lot about the oligopoly-like smartphone market. People here have been criticizing me and voting me down because I've had the hide to suggest features for specialized phones but no one seems to bother addressing the elephant in the room which is that the smartphone market has reached stagnation. There's been fuck-all worthwhile innovation in recent years.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  > First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. First, multiple USB ports are bulky, and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about. I don't need an extra port for the majority of my uses. > Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external devices via OTG is often set deliberately to time out after say 30 mins or such, also on many devices permission to access OTG is awkward, and the vast majority of phones do not support NTFS for external drives or internal SD cards. The timeouts are for idle time. If you have a long period of idle time, you aren't using the device... which consumes power from your tiny phone battery. It's very reasonable for the uses most people use them for. I'd agree it would be nice to have the ability to disable the timeout, but I can't speak to what every phone manufacturer is doing. > More on NTFS, why doesn't Android support NTFS after all this length of time? After all, the Linux kernel now does and has done so for some time, so why has Google nuked it from the Android kernel? What's wrong with exFAT? It's an external hard drive. Better compatibility with everything anyways. > People here have been criticizing me and voting me down because I've had the hide to suggest features for specialized phones but no one seems to bother addressing the elephant in the room which is that the smartphone market has reached stagnation. And what exactly is wrong with that? Laptops also haven't had "innovation" in the sense you're describing in years either. They serve their purpose, do what they do well, and get marginally better year over year. It's fine.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

There's fantastically few phones with multiple USB ports. Some of the Lenovo Legion gaming handhelds are the only ones I can think of. But we are seeing some signs this might change. And insure hope it does, in a big way. A hub can be ok, but with the need to mix display out & peripherals and power, in fancy ways, USB3 really is a limited option. And alas USB4 fixes many of the constraints but is way too high end alas alas alas. Anyways here's an upcoming very cheap tablet with multiple ports, and reports are a lot more are coming. Given the marginal cost of ports, it's about frelling time! Do it! You won't ever have adoption if there's no (or almost no) option! https://www.techradar.com/pro/this-tablet-has-a-genius-feature-i-want-every-vendor-to-copy-a-second-usb-c-port-that-allows-you-to-display-content-on-an-external-screen https://www.techradar.com/pro/this-tablet-has-a-genius-featu...

astrange 2y ago

> Why isn't there general purpose D/A and A/D ports/outputs for instrumentation? There is one, it's the headphone jack. (Or dongle.)

hilbert42 2y ago
Not useful, it's dedicated. You missed my point.
- astrange 2y ago
  Is that autocorrect? Because I have no idea what dedicated means here. It's obviously useful, that's how Square launched their card reader business.
  - hoseja 2y ago
    Can you access the ADC in a non-audio context? If not then it's dedicated to audio. The Square reader is like a telephone modem, presumably some app then listens to the "microphone"?

nrclark 2y ago

A small correction here: 90%+ of audio I/O ports aren't general-purpose. This is because there are almost always DC-blocker circuits on each output, commonly a series capacitor. With very few exceptions, you can't use your soundcard to provide an accurate DC output such as a control voltage.