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The Myth of Bananaland
- ttyprintk 2y agoSome trivia alluded to in the article: The UFC fleet had its own maritime flag The UFC is the only company known to have a CIA code name Also, this is not related to Hawaii. The US colonization of Hawaii also involved fruit plantations.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoIt's crazy to think people still deny current US involvement in other countries, given all this past evidence. Just look what Chevron is doing today: UFC 2.0. https://youtu.be/9OtIAZMqrZE?si=11uBrlWr-pSL4APj https://youtu.be/9OtIAZMqrZE?si=11uBrlWr-pSL4APj
- smallerfish 2y agoWho denies US involvement in other countries? That seems a little bit of a straw man.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>Who denies US involvement in other countries? You haven't been on HN long enough if you never saw it.
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoBecause colonialism is used as a lazy cope out for all uncomfortable discussions. Shit in a mans yard in the past, and you are responsible for all future ills that befall him. And its such a lazy cope out- just proof the first sin of the past - and then its allover, no self-responsibility, not good things, no bad things, no history- just original sin was proven, im done here. And people are sick and tired of it- while the world is filled with counter- examples to that narrative just filling the news.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoAre you saying western colonialism has no impact on the world of today? Not just colonialism from 200 years ago, but the colonialism happening today. You're moving the goalposts on the original sin, while I was discussing the issues of today or at least recent past (Iranian revolution was only in 1979, Invasion of Iraq was in 2003, Arab spring in 2011, Taliban rule form 2021). You can't just wave away decades or even centuries of oppression and intervention in other countries' affairs that changed them forever (that sill happen to this day BTW, and by the same powers), with "whatever mate, it was in the past", as if you broke my phone screen in junior school. No mate, it wasn't just in the past, it's still happening. Except colonialism today is less about large sailing wooden ships and conquistadors with muskets straight up stealing your shit from your town at gunpoint and shipping abroad along with slaves, but more alphabet agency black-ops and monetary/economic levers to topple your leader and replace him with a friendly puppet one who will willingly and legally sign off your country's resources and your peoples' labor to western corporations as salves, for way below market price. This isn't the original sin anymore, this is its modern version.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoA vastly overrated impact, to almost non-existence by now. You can see the multi-polar world if you squint- and all that shit usually blamed at the west, turns out to be just murderous local land empires, blaming all the things they do to gain power on western influence or history, but actually doing the same thing they did before the west rolled up. We are just not that important. Never were actually, just lucky and luck is running out. Others now colonialize happy ever after in the original english image and if asked- tell you that they do it for "western interests" or customers. And its bullshit. And the audience walks out on that story, wherever its told. It has no explanation power any-more and if you tell a story without explanation power, it just gives credence to the assholes you pushed of the stage. Thus tooting that horn, is like glueing MAGA WAS RIGHT to every fence in town.
- ks2048 2y agoIn some tech circles, it’s not denial of involvement, but that involvement is good and needs to be stronger. See the recent viral monologue from the CEO of Palantir where he says we need to dominate and have everyone live in fear of us (and if you disagree, you’re a woke pagan).
- IncreasePosts 2y agoWe hear that all the time from all sides though. This is a bit reductive, but the people who commonly shout "The US shouldn't be the world police!" are the same people who are begging the US to send more and more money and munitions to Ukraine.
- Yeul 2y agoThat kind of bullying is why countries turn to China. Xi Jinping painting China as the champion of free trade versus the isolationist America. It strikes a chord with my country let me tell you that.
- 0dayz 2y agoSeriously that channel? The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea?
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. >Who also did a fluff piece on north Korea? Someone didn't get the humor and sarcasm I guess.
- ttyprintk 2y agoAn AI summary of that channel’s Ukraine video does fall into a narrative I’ve seen in the West: 1. Eastern states joined NATO for defense 2. This redirected Russian aggression to Chechnya, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine 3. Thus, the invading forces must themselves be acting with circumspection about NATO This reasoning tends to prefer analysis rather than emphasize what invading armies do to civilians. We know what’s happening to civilians in each of those invasions. We do not know (and should not care) if each soldier has an opinion of NATO.
- gruez 2y ago>>The same channel who said it's nato and the west's fault that Russia is invading Ukraine? >I don't remember them saying that. I do remember them showing US political and financial involvement in Ukraine. They stopped short of saying it explicitly, but it was strongly implied. The whole video basically lists out all of russia's motivation for the war, and then concludes with "now there's a war in europe [...] if there was only someone who have predicted it, someone with power to stop it" followed by a few sound bites/clips strongly alluding to Western defense officials. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8
- Cumpiler69 2y agoI love it when people go off the beaten path to prove that wrong opinions about one unrelated topic somehow must automatically disprove true facts about a completely different topic. It's the playbook of trolls. Whataboutism at it's finest.
- ttyprintk 2y agoThe way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia was so strong mid-century that a certain kind of self promotion propelled someone into CIA decision making. Agents could dose LSD to random workers, in public. Agents could take LSD on the job. The same government which tolerated that also needed to emphasize the importance of diplomacy to avoid a nuclear first strike. Even though Russian radar specialists avoided war by remaining calm, it’s true that global revolution was a widespread priority and tropical leaders who wanted favors tended not to be calm. The objectives and contradictions are very different now. The first 14 James Bond movies were trying to avert a madman obsessed with triggering a nuclear first strike. The next 13 were not. The cool Russians who avoided hysteria devoted a generation of resources on real bad decisions made in Afghanistan. The only constant is how you’re treated if you get in the way of profit.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago>The way I see it, anti-Communist paranoia Ironically, the anti-communist paranoia is also what brought a lot of rights and perks to workers in the US and Europe. The ruling elite had to concede some demands to the working class to prevent the read scare from spreading. Now that threat is gone, we're seeing a claw-back (defanging unions, etc).
- ttyprintk 2y agoI like the labor lens for seeing turning points in the Cold War. The oil crisis delegitimized socialist and communist plans. So I’m not sure those plans mattered in union gains. Polish Solidarity is a great example.
- dylan604 2y agoread scare? I know some books are scary, but quite the typo from red scare. just in case someone wasn't familiar with the term.
- cess11 2y agoParanoia? Not at all, the global left at the time was actually into things like racial and gender equality and so on, it was not just a paranoid delusion among elites in the USA. So called communist states actually built people's armies, actually brought people out of poverty and taught them to read and write and study, actually sent soldiers to colonies to fight the colonisers. The anti-left propaganda obviously did not want to put these things into focus, since it had clearly inspired rather successful revolutions and reform projects in Europe and elsewhere. Instead we got these medicalised narratives where socialism or communism is presented as a viral epidemic, or leftist leaders described as profoundly evil persons bent on subjugating the world under tyranny.
- rolandog 2y agoThanks for sharing. I'm livid at the scope of injustice, corruption, and lack of accountability... From a previous discussion [0]: > I wish they'd not bury the lead here's what it is: For three decades, Chevron dumped billions of gallons of cancer-causing oil waste into the rivers and streams of the Amazon Rainforest in Ecuador. > This produced a devastating environmental catastrophe that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Indigenous peoples and farmers. Even today, Indigenous communities continue to face imminent risk of death due to exposure to Chevron’s toxic waste. > https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb > The youtube video description doesn't even explain it. Here's a link to their Patreon to continue to support such informative creators [1], and a link to the Free Donzinger campaign [2]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848861 [1]: https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy https://www.patreon.com/Boy_Boy [2]: https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb https://chuffed.org/campaign/free-donziger/bb
- eesmith 2y ago> The UFC fleet had its own maritime flag Which, to be fair, is not surprising. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/House_flags_(shipping)#Former_39 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/House_flags_(shipping)#Fo... shows the UFC flag. There is a more complete list of house flags at https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us~hf.html https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us~hf.html , including from two other fruit companies. > The UFC is the only company known to have a CIA code name FWIW, https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=WUOUTDONE https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=WUOUTDONE claims WUOUTDONE was the CIA name for the El Paso Natural Gas Company.
- ttyprintk 2y agoAwesome, thank you.
- earthboundkid 2y agoThe Dole who took over Hawaii (Sanford Dole) was cousin to the pineapple company guy (James Dole). So, not the same guy, but also not unrelated either.
- ttyprintk 2y agoThank you. Wish I could correct what I said.
- FuriouslyAdrift 2y agoDoesn't suprise me since the Dulles brothers (Secretary of State and head of CIA respectively) were owners and on the payroll for nearly 40 years. "John Foster Dulles, who represented United Fruit while he was a law partner at Sullivan & Cromwell – he negotiated that crucial United Fruit deal with Guatemalan officials in the 1930s – was Secretary of State under Eisenhower; his brother Allen, who did legal work for the company and sat on its board of directors, was head of the CIA under Eisenhower; Henry Cabot Lodge, who was America's ambassador to the UN, was a large owner of United Fruit stock; Ed Whitman, the United Fruit PR man, was married to Ann Whitman, Dwight Eisenhower's personal secretary. You could not see these connections until you could – and then you could not stop seeing them." https://archive.org/details/fishthatatewhale00cohe https://archive.org/details/fishthatatewhale00cohe
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> UFC is the only company known to have a CIA code name What does this mean? The CIA presumably has cryptonyms for all sorts of entities.
- ttyprintk 2y agoI was wrong and there are numerous other companies that are coded as operations. My understanding is that the UFC operated a fleet of fruit shipments which also transported tourists. That seems like a pretty comfortable setting for CIA agents. I myself don’t know the cryptonym, maybe begins with YO-.
- eesmith 2y agoMy understanding is that a lot of primarily cargo ships back then also had passenger service. At https://archive.org/details/great-whitefleet-united-fruit-company-steamship-service-1912-1913/page/4/mode/2up?q=%22general+fruit+carrying%22 https://archive.org/details/great-whitefleet-united-fruit-co... you can read how UFC's "Great White Fleet" used ships "intended for general fruit carrying and passenger service between New York, West Indian and Central American ports." The passenger service existed "to satisfy the tropic-hunger of the North", and the pictures show the luxury. It's still possible to be a passenger on a modern freighter, but not at that level of luxury. https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1952-54Guat/terms https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1952-54Gua... page on "Abbreviations and Cryptonyms" says UFCO, UNFC, and UNIFRUIT were used for United Fruit Company. The Danish Wikipedia mentions UNIFRUIT at https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%27s_kodeord https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%27s_kodeord but the English one does not.
- Vox_Leone 2y agoBrazilians always had a beef with the Banana Republic thing. They took it personally as a criticism. There is a famous 'carnaval' tongue in cheek song that was composed as an 'answer' to "Yes, we have no bananas": Yes, we do have Bananas[1] Yes, we do have bananas/ Bananas to give and sell/ Baby girl, bananas have vitamins/ Banana makes you healthy and strong/ Coffee goes to France, yes/ Cotton goes to Japan, for sure/ For the whole world, man or woman/ Bananas for whoever wants it/ Mate for Paraguay, no way/ Gold from our pockets, no way/ We are part of the crisis, if it comes/ Bananas for whoever wants it/ [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou_N7ajW96I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou_N7ajW96I
- dekken_ 2y agoyou might enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgydTdThoeA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgydTdThoeA
- durkie 2y agoWhat is amazing to me is that this post references an "epidemic of slipping on banana peels", was posted within a day of a wonderful (33 minute long!) video about the history of slipping on banana peels, and neither references the other! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8W5GCnqT_M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8W5GCnqT_M
- galleywest200 2y ago> Have you ever seen anybody slip on a banana peel? I, personally, have not. But if you watch old movies and cartoons, it seems like everybody was sliding around on discarded banana peels. This actually happened to me once in Capitol Hill in Seattle. I slipped, looked down, and it was a banana peel. One of the few times I wish someone saw me make a mistake so I could have had a witness.
- conductr 2y agoI think what old movies left out was how much litter was on streets and sidewalks, so slipping on a peel may actually have been more common
- jacobr1 2y agoAnother explanation I once heard was that that slipping on horse manure was actually the more common experience, and a banana was a polite substitute for movies.
- mrandish 2y agoThis never occurred to me and seems entirely plausible given that horse manure was constant annoyance in higher traffic areas. The problem was so serious early auto advocates cited the reduction in manure as a major benefit.
- zeroonetwothree 2y agoHappened to me as well. My guess is it's more the absence of banana peels on the ground that makes it rare, not that they aren't slippery.
- saghm 2y agoInteresting! I'm still waiting to hear about a car slipping on a banana peel though (a la Mario Kart).
- samplatt 2y agoI'm a little surprised no one's mentioned the root source of banana-peel-slipping: fraud. https://sundaymagazine.org/2010/11/26/the-woman-the-banana-peel-and-the-damage-suits/ https://sundaymagazine.org/2010/11/26/the-woman-the-banana-p... TL;DR - At the turn of last century, suing for personal damages experienced a peak where people would fake an injury. It's literally where the trope in the old moves came from.
- hermitcrab 2y agoThe history of the United Fruit Company is covered in detail in the book "The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King". It details how Samuel Zemurray rose from poor fruit peddlar, to one of the most powerful men in the world. It is an interesting read.
- zeroonetwothree 2y agoVery nice book!
- selimthegrim 2y agoHis house is now occupied by the president of Tulane University.
- drweevil 2y agoAnother good book on this, covering the CIA's part in this history is David Talbot's The Devil's Chessboard. Talbot's coverage of the '54 coup was particularly gripping, and very depressing.
- potato3732842 2y ago>The photo below is captioned with casual racism: One way of carrying bananas: At the docks of the United Fruit Co., mechanical carriers, so perfected as not to bruise the fruit, have replaced the leisurely negro. Nitpick: That wasn't a prevailing stereotype back then so dismissing it as simple racism reduces the historical insight that can be gleaned. The idle black man stereotype comes from the 1960s and later and originates in the US. Prior to that they would be stereotyped the latin Americans are typically stereotyped today, hard working but low class laborers, so the commentary from the period that was added to the photo actually raises the question why these dock workers were being considered leisurely. Now I'm wondering why they wrote that...
- stronglikedan 2y ago> Now I'm wondering why they wrote that... Probably one of the usual suspects: projection or virtue signaling.
- teachrdan 2y ago>> Now I'm wondering why they wrote that... > Probably one of the usual suspects: projection or virtue signaling. Pretty sure the post you're referring to is wondering why the original caption referred to the "leisurely negro". The alleged virtue signaling you refer to seems to be an honest misunderstanding by the author of the Myth of Bananaland.
- pessimizer 2y ago> That wasn't a prevailing stereotype back then The stereotype has always been that black people are so lazy that the only time we show intelligence is in the creative ways we use to get out of work. It's a slaveholder's stereotype and a justification for torture. This is the stereotype now, this was the stereotype then, and this stereotype has been applied to any group of slaves or low-waged workers who were ethnically distinct from the people who benefited from their labor. That's why they wrote that.
- sporc 2y ago
- johnea 2y agoA millennial's rambling monologue about his childhood, century old pop songs, and a bunch of other stuff having little or nothing to do with United Fruit. (sorry, I only scanned half way through it, I just couldn't take anymore) This type of post is so common it really needs a unique identifying tag to prevent misleading potential readers. People can write whatever they want in their blags, but it shouldn't be presented as any kind of "news", hacker or otherwise.
- dmonitor 2y agoI think the contrast between the pop culture representation of bananas vs the behavior of the united fruit company makes the article a fun read.
- culi 2y agoThe article at least mentions the Banana Massacre in which UFC massacred striking banana workers but I think it paints a very misleading picture. This wasn't just a one-off event. It's something that still continues to this day. UFc now goes by Chiquita but even in the past decade its been caught at least once paying off gangs to assassinate would-be labor leaders. These are gangs that, after intense international pressures, the US had placed on terrorist lists. This isn't just "history". This is the reality of how this fragile tropical fruit that requires a mind-blowing supply chain to arrive to the Northern hemisphere is somehow the cheapest fruit in the grocery store.
- bryanrasmussen 2y agoI agree that the violence around bananas are part of what keeps it cheap, but probably the amount of time an unripe banana can be stored, the ease of packing, and the relatively low weight for something so easy to pack and ship contribute significantly too
- o999 2y agoAnd almost every instance the US is promoting "self-determination" or "liberation" of certain countries.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoUnited Fruit didn't stop with Guatemala. It became Chiquita which gave money to the AUC paramilitary group in Colombia who forced poor farmers to sell their land for cultivation https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/chiquita-made-killing-colombias-civil-war https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/chiquita-made-killing-col...
- throwawaycities 2y ago>Have you ever seen anybody slip on a banana peel? There is actually a famous case everyone studies in law school torts class about negligence and duty of care where a woman slips on a banana peel, Anjou v. Boston Elevated Railway Co. (Mass. 1911). There is even a joke that goes along with it: the case was lost on appeal.
- miohtama 2y agoOh wow: And in 1954, the CIA protected United Fruit’s interests by overthrowing the Guatemalan government, which had threatened to take some of the company’s land — much of which was being held in reserve, not even cultivated — and redistribute it. The American ambassador to the country used the Cold War to justify the ousting of President Jacobo Arbenz even though Arbenz was not quite a communist. The ambassador, John Peurifoy, famously said that "if Arbenz is not a communist, he will certainly do until one comes along." Dwight Eisenhower tried to put a good face on things by explaining that The people of Guatemala, in a magnificent effort, have liberated themselves from the shackles of international Communist direction and reclaimed their right for self-determination . . . I pay tribute to the historic demonstration of devotion to the cause of freedom given by the people of Guatemala and their leaders. But it was clear what had really happened. The American-led coup installed a dictator, Carlos Castillo Armas, who repealed the constitution, established concentration camps for his enemies, and arrested thousands of dissidents. After his assassination in 1957, the country was plunged into a terrible civil war.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y agoIt's ah, so interesting to see what Greeks looked like in the US imaginary in years past. The illustration of the Greek fruit seller in the article (from a sheet music cover of the "Yes! We have no banans" song [1]) is from the 1920's a time when Greeks had just started emigrating to the US. I confess the man in the picture looks like more of a Turkish stereotype to me, or maybe like a Moorish pirate (what are those huge ear rings!). Anyway, interesting stuff. It's always surprising to see how your kind is seen by people in faraway lands. For instance, I would be really curious to know how the Japanese might have seen my people, but there's never been a big migration to Japan from Greece so we'll never know. But I'm guessing: big noses. And even bigger moustaches! _______________ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas#/media/File:Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes!_We_Have_No_Bananas#/media...