5 ms·

> One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having

> One of the reasons birthrates have plummeted in the West, and sentiments about having children have dropped, is that we have no "village", so to speak. Having children is not only an astronomical expense -- every single element of life is dramatically more expensive, made much worse with the housing crisis occurring in many Western nations -- a couple is often entirely on their own. There are no respites or breaks. It’s the opportunity cost of having children. When you’re poor, it’s not changing what you can do with your life. You were never able to go to dinner or on vacation. When you’re wealthy, you can afford to bring them with you, or better, pay somebody to watch them while you’re gone. The well-off middle class needs to weigh completely changing their lives.

The_Colonel 2y ago
> When you’re poor, it’s not changing what you can do with your life. You were never able to go to dinner or on vacation. When you're poor and child-less, you can still sleep in on weekends, watch Netflix/game all day/night or whatever other (cheap) hobby you have. It's even possible to do a decent amount of travelling on a very tight budget these days (low-cost airlines, couchsurfing...). All things considered, today is not a bad time to be a poor person in terms of being able to have fun. I think even for middle class, the main cost is actually the time rather than the monetary cost. But I do agree that opportunity cost is the right framing.
- bearincar 2y ago
  [dead]
- anthonypasq 2y ago
  is just so absolutely bizarre to me as a 28 year old childless man who intends to have kids that gaming could possibly be something that you would trade vs raising a literal human child who is a genetic copy of you and the person you love most in your life
  - marssaxman 2y ago
    Human beings vary in all kinds of ways, more than we generally expect, right down to the nature of our most fundamental fears and desires. Not everyone wants to have children, in the way that you do, and some people clearly want not to. I doubt that anyone would prefer gaming to children because they hold gaming in the kind of profound esteem you feel for the task of "raising a literal human child"; more likely, they simply don't feel much of anything about having kids, or perhaps they feel some aversion. It's not hard for even a comparatively trivial activity you enjoy to feel more appealing than an alternative you don't actually desire.
  - JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
    I agree; as someone who was _very_ into gaming at different periods of my life. Both gaming and travelling struck me as things young adults do to pass the time when they don’t have the privilege and responsibility of a family. I understand procrastination for sure, but the idea that someone would avoid having kids to do the above is absolutely bizarre to me.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    Please don't take it as a personal attack, but you're 28 and from the way you're talking, it sounds like kids are not a priority for you right now, so apparently you want to do certain things before getting them. Many people who end up child-less are just like you - they don't actively decide "I'd rather game than have children", they just make excuses and postpone until it just doesn't work out at all. One thing which I kind of regret about having children relatively late in my life (although I wasn't that much older when I had my first than you are now) is that I won't be there for them (and potentially grandchildren) as long as I wish I would be, esp. in good health. A depressing way to think about this is that every year I've enjoyed the freedom before them is a year I'm not going to spend with them.
    - anthonypasq 2y ago
      no that perfectly makes sense, and for some context i am likely to have a kid within the next 5 years if things dont go horribly in my relationship, but beyond that i really struggle to imagine that a 42nd vacation at the age of 62 is going to be more satisfying than watching my kids graduate college
stared 2y ago
And it is reflected in numbers. The fertility rate has a non-monotonous relationship with income. It is the middle-income fertility that plummets. https://x.com/theHauer/status/1222514313723875332/photo/1 https://x.com/theHauer/status/1222514313723875332/photo/1 From "Population Pyramids Yield Accurate Estimates of Total Fertility Rates", https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s13524-019-00842-x?shared_access_token=brhk1_78v8zBOj1AmcV6QPe4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY7WFB9uzawr3vYOxFTqfJP10YbowzLedcLsecPZo_Amgaeh9iBBGcMEEkl8zLRZqJudqS8wuPxgCoX-h7sC751LZDMxJQx-EjVu3ZVTePSbNu4cbgyHL4W-7qw6bKic6YQ%3D https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s13524-019-00842-x?sh...
throwaway2037 2y ago
How is this any different than 25/50/75 years ago? Not much being said here. What has really changed in many wealthy countries: There is less family support because many people live far from their parents. And, proportionally, housing/healthcare/education is more expensive for middle class and below compared to previous generations.

The_Colonel 2y ago

> When you’re poor, it’s not changing what you can do with your life. You were never able to go to dinner or on vacation. When you're poor and child-less, you can still sleep in on weekends, watch Netflix/game all day/night or whatever other (cheap) hobby you have. It's even possible to do a decent amount of travelling on a very tight budget these days (low-cost airlines, couchsurfing...). All things considered, today is not a bad time to be a poor person in terms of being able to have fun. I think even for middle class, the main cost is actually the time rather than the monetary cost. But I do agree that opportunity cost is the right framing.

bearincar 2y ago
[dead]
anthonypasq 2y ago
is just so absolutely bizarre to me as a 28 year old childless man who intends to have kids that gaming could possibly be something that you would trade vs raising a literal human child who is a genetic copy of you and the person you love most in your life
- marssaxman 2y ago
  Human beings vary in all kinds of ways, more than we generally expect, right down to the nature of our most fundamental fears and desires. Not everyone wants to have children, in the way that you do, and some people clearly want not to. I doubt that anyone would prefer gaming to children because they hold gaming in the kind of profound esteem you feel for the task of "raising a literal human child"; more likely, they simply don't feel much of anything about having kids, or perhaps they feel some aversion. It's not hard for even a comparatively trivial activity you enjoy to feel more appealing than an alternative you don't actually desire.
- JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
  I agree; as someone who was _very_ into gaming at different periods of my life. Both gaming and travelling struck me as things young adults do to pass the time when they don’t have the privilege and responsibility of a family. I understand procrastination for sure, but the idea that someone would avoid having kids to do the above is absolutely bizarre to me.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  Please don't take it as a personal attack, but you're 28 and from the way you're talking, it sounds like kids are not a priority for you right now, so apparently you want to do certain things before getting them. Many people who end up child-less are just like you - they don't actively decide "I'd rather game than have children", they just make excuses and postpone until it just doesn't work out at all. One thing which I kind of regret about having children relatively late in my life (although I wasn't that much older when I had my first than you are now) is that I won't be there for them (and potentially grandchildren) as long as I wish I would be, esp. in good health. A depressing way to think about this is that every year I've enjoyed the freedom before them is a year I'm not going to spend with them.
  - anthonypasq 2y ago
    no that perfectly makes sense, and for some context i am likely to have a kid within the next 5 years if things dont go horribly in my relationship, but beyond that i really struggle to imagine that a 42nd vacation at the age of 62 is going to be more satisfying than watching my kids graduate college

stared 2y ago

And it is reflected in numbers. The fertility rate has a non-monotonous relationship with income. It is the middle-income fertility that plummets. https://x.com/theHauer/status/1222514313723875332/photo/1 https://x.com/theHauer/status/1222514313723875332/photo/1 From "Population Pyramids Yield Accurate Estimates of Total Fertility Rates", https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s13524-019-00842-x?shared_access_token=brhk1_78v8zBOj1AmcV6QPe4RwlQNchNByi7wbcMAY7WFB9uzawr3vYOxFTqfJP10YbowzLedcLsecPZo_Amgaeh9iBBGcMEEkl8zLRZqJudqS8wuPxgCoX-h7sC751LZDMxJQx-EjVu3ZVTePSbNu4cbgyHL4W-7qw6bKic6YQ%3D https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s13524-019-00842-x?sh...

throwaway2037 2y ago

How is this any different than 25/50/75 years ago? Not much being said here. What has really changed in many wealthy countries: There is less family support because many people live far from their parents. And, proportionally, housing/healthcare/education is more expensive for middle class and below compared to previous generations.