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> if it is at all possible to implement an invention in software, it is essentially math and does not deserve patent protection The current patent laws are ins

by shasta 14y ago

> if it is at all possible to implement an invention in software, it is essentially math and does not deserve patent protection The current patent laws are insanity, but I don't agree with this. The class of mathematical ideas too abstract to patent should be distinguished not just by whether or not an idea can be modeled mathematically (they all can!) but by how fundamental the ideas are. The goal should be to protect abstract ideas that will naturally be discovered independently by mathematicians. Complex software that solves some real world problem shouldn't be disqualified on these grounds, since it is almost of exactly the same nature as hardware that achieves the same goals.

ynniv 14y ago
Any idea can be modelled mathematically, but that doesn't meet my criteria. Modeling is an estimation of how something works, but it isn't the mechanism by which something works. The current state of software patents results in people filing three sets of claims: the invention itself, a method that implements the invention, and a computer system that implements the invention. The rationale is that if invention claims (complicated math) are not enforceable, method claims might be, and if neither of those are, perhaps claims that mention hardware claim might be. You'll note that none of these motivations are strong, and that's because it has been left up to the courts to decide, and there is very little case law around software patents since everyone settles out of court. We think they are patentable because someone decades ago successfully enforced a patent regarding computer controlled curation of plastic. Complex software that solves some real world problem shouldn't be disqualified on these grounds, since it is almost of exactly the same nature as hardware that achieves the same goals. What makes complex software more valuable than simple software? Any engineer worth their salt will claim the precise opposite. Also, a product is not in itself patentable outside of the trade dress. You first have to find the novel invention inside the product, which is generally a simple idea.
- shasta 14y ago
  Modeling is an estimation of how something works, but it isn't the mechanism by which something works. Let's look at a concrete example. Suppose someone produces a device that contains some generic components: a centrifuge, spectrum analyzer, etc. and sells this device on the market. Someone else comes along and develops software that, with the aid of one of these generic devices, can detect a blood defect or airborne pathogens or whatever. Do you agree that this software should be patentable? Maybe you'd say that the software isn't patentable, but using the software with the machine is? And attempting to sell a clone of the software wouldn't be patent infringement per se, but if it was clearly intended to be used with the devices would be inducing infringement and also a tort? If that's your position then we agree in spirit, I think, though I think that looks mostly like double talk to me. If you don't think such a device should be patentable on the grounds that the only new component is software, then we disagree. What makes complex software more valuable than simple software? I didn't say it was more valuable, and I don't think complexity should even be a requirement. It's just that software that pertains to the real world tends to be complex.
  - ynniv 14y ago
    Do you agree that this software should be patentable? No. Maybe you'd say that the software isn't patentable, but using the software with the machine is? No. If you design a better blender, it is an visible improvement that can be immediately adopted by existing manufacturers before you can capitalize on your invention. There is little to prevent this from happening. It is unlikely that you will create a better blender, but should you manage to do so the people of the United State of America will grant you exclusive production for a limited number of years. If you create software that better controls mixing equipment, you can license your software to existing manufacturers. You are protected from competitors by copyright and trade secret. You can license the idea to companies by developing software directly for their hardware and only providing them object code. If they create a new product based on reverse engineering your object code (clearly for reasons other than interoperability), you can seek damages. Patents are for inventions which are expensive, visible, and not otherwise protected. Software, like literary works and the formula for Coke-a-Cola, has other protections. When patents are applied to industries where invention is common, hidden, and independent invention is likely, the system falls apart.

by shasta 14y ago

ynniv 14y ago

Any idea can be modelled mathematically, but that doesn't meet my criteria. Modeling is an estimation of how something works, but it isn't the mechanism by which something works. The current state of software patents results in people filing three sets of claims: the invention itself, a method that implements the invention, and a computer system that implements the invention. The rationale is that if invention claims (complicated math) are not enforceable, method claims might be, and if neither of those are, perhaps claims that mention hardware claim might be. You'll note that none of these motivations are strong, and that's because it has been left up to the courts to decide, and there is very little case law around software patents since everyone settles out of court. We think they are patentable because someone decades ago successfully enforced a patent regarding computer controlled curation of plastic. Complex software that solves some real world problem shouldn't be disqualified on these grounds, since it is almost of exactly the same nature as hardware that achieves the same goals. What makes complex software more valuable than simple software? Any engineer worth their salt will claim the precise opposite. Also, a product is not in itself patentable outside of the trade dress. You first have to find the novel invention inside the product, which is generally a simple idea.

shasta 14y ago
Modeling is an estimation of how something works, but it isn't the mechanism by which something works. Let's look at a concrete example. Suppose someone produces a device that contains some generic components: a centrifuge, spectrum analyzer, etc. and sells this device on the market. Someone else comes along and develops software that, with the aid of one of these generic devices, can detect a blood defect or airborne pathogens or whatever. Do you agree that this software should be patentable? Maybe you'd say that the software isn't patentable, but using the software with the machine is? And attempting to sell a clone of the software wouldn't be patent infringement per se, but if it was clearly intended to be used with the devices would be inducing infringement and also a tort? If that's your position then we agree in spirit, I think, though I think that looks mostly like double talk to me. If you don't think such a device should be patentable on the grounds that the only new component is software, then we disagree. What makes complex software more valuable than simple software? I didn't say it was more valuable, and I don't think complexity should even be a requirement. It's just that software that pertains to the real world tends to be complex.
- ynniv 14y ago
  Do you agree that this software should be patentable? No. Maybe you'd say that the software isn't patentable, but using the software with the machine is? No. If you design a better blender, it is an visible improvement that can be immediately adopted by existing manufacturers before you can capitalize on your invention. There is little to prevent this from happening. It is unlikely that you will create a better blender, but should you manage to do so the people of the United State of America will grant you exclusive production for a limited number of years. If you create software that better controls mixing equipment, you can license your software to existing manufacturers. You are protected from competitors by copyright and trade secret. You can license the idea to companies by developing software directly for their hardware and only providing them object code. If they create a new product based on reverse engineering your object code (clearly for reasons other than interoperability), you can seek damages. Patents are for inventions which are expensive, visible, and not otherwise protected. Software, like literary works and the formula for Coke-a-Cola, has other protections. When patents are applied to industries where invention is common, hidden, and independent invention is likely, the system falls apart.