6 ms·

> a secular government that allowed ... to live there. "live" is a strong word to use there.

by j_maffe 2y ago

dyauspitr 2y ago
Syria wasn’t a particularly shitty place before all this began in 2013.
- j_maffe 2y ago
  It was under a repressive dictatorship with crumbling infrastructure. Sure, it can always be worse, but the people deserve and are capable of so much better.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Sure, it can always be worse" Yes, I would argue the islamic state was indeed worse. And so far I see nothing preventing them or a similar force taking hold again. I mean turkey is the moderating factor here and turkey under Erdogan has gone the authorian islamic way since a while.
    - j_maffe 2y ago
      Drawing analogies between Erdogan and the IS is wild.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Where did I do that? I said I am sceptical for the outcome, if Erdogan is the moderating factor. Or do you think, he cares much for human rights and democracy? That is far from saying he is like IS.
      - jajko 2y ago
        Well his son made hundreds of millions / billions from selling directly oil from ISIS held lands, since nobody else wanted to deal with them. His daughter personally built and supervised hospitals in Turkey specifically built to treat wounded ISIS fighters. These are verified public informations, although they obviously deny it. Erdogan is as much pro-ISIS as one can be. Maybe just a political game during complex conflict to fight against US-supported kurds at all costs, maybe not. We don't know.
    - AngaraliTurk 2y ago
      I was giving you the benefit of doubt all this time, but your comments about my country confirms to me that you're misinformed. For all I hate Erdoğan and his attempts to undermine democracy, and I want to see him gone sooner or later, Turkey is as much an Islamic authoritarian state as USA is a Christian authoritarian one under the rule of Trump. There seems to be a tendency to exaggerate the realities on the ground for some reason, and I suspect this is fueled by bots.
      - lukan 2y ago
        I said going the authorian islamic way, not that you are already a califat. Sorry for the missunderstanding, I am aware that turkey is all in all still quite democratic and secular and we seem to both not like the direction Erdogan is heading. My point was, Erdogans influence over the SNA is not comforting me. Btw. I just read, a pro SNA news source: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-astana-format-meeting-in-qatar-agrees-to-step-up-efforts-to-stabilize-syria/3417600 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-astana-format-meeti... It seems the war will continue.
        j_maffe 2y ago
        Why are you relating authoritarianism with "Islamic way" or even the Caliphates? I've never seen anyone make this claim before, which is, to be honest, quite absurd. Edit: Also your linked article no longer reflects the current stance of Russia.
        lukan 2y ago
        That link I gave is propaganda BS. It claims the syrian army gave the terrorists( SDF) control over the new areas, while in reality they fought with US support against iranian and syrian regime militias. So that iran could not send support without fighting their way through it, maybe a turning point in this war. It was just to illustrate that Erdogans goals are not peace, after Assad is gone.
        j_maffe 2y ago
  - MoreMoore 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - j_maffe 2y ago
      > There's not even any hope of it. I love it when online commenters display more confidence in their opinions than experts in the field. Really shows how much value their opinion has.
      - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
        “experts in the field” are a great excuse to manipulate public opinion
      - jampekka 2y ago
        What experts expect Syria to get better? The rebels are led by a rebranding of al-Nusra Front which is widely designated as an islamist terrorist organization.
        throwup238 2y ago
        The rebels aren’t led by any one group and HTS only has control over some northern provinces. There’s at least four major alliances in play between dozens of rebel groups at the moment, and there’s no one frontrunner to take over.
ssijak 2y ago
Yes, it must be much better now after all the devastation. Same with Lybia, much better place now, no?
- j_maffe 2y ago
  Why do you insist that it will go the way of Libya? The rebels are calling for a peaceful and democratic transition of the government and the protection of all minorities. They've stopped using Islamist rhetoric for almost 10 years. This is as good of a regime change in Syria as it gets.
  - blub 2y ago
    There is no counter-example of thriving democracies developed after western regime change projects. On the other hand, there’s Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - grumple 2y ago
        Also Italy and Austria.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        If the examples springing to mind were in 1945 then that says a lot about how US efforts are going in the modern era. There is no real comparison to how the US handled defeated powers in WWII and how the State Department handles regime changes from ... I want to say the 60s onwards. All the people involved in Germany or Japan's reconstitution are dead (Ed Deming, we miss you; heros of the peace are the most impressive ones). Which is a shame because the 1950s strategy of investment and prosperity made the world much better and the modern strategy of destabilisation tends to make it worse.
        2y ago

> a secular government that allowed ... to live there. "live" is a strong word to use there.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Syria wasn’t a particularly shitty place before all this began in 2013.

j_maffe 2y ago
It was under a repressive dictatorship with crumbling infrastructure. Sure, it can always be worse, but the people deserve and are capable of so much better.
- lukan 2y ago
  "Sure, it can always be worse" Yes, I would argue the islamic state was indeed worse. And so far I see nothing preventing them or a similar force taking hold again. I mean turkey is the moderating factor here and turkey under Erdogan has gone the authorian islamic way since a while.
  - j_maffe 2y ago
    Drawing analogies between Erdogan and the IS is wild.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Where did I do that? I said I am sceptical for the outcome, if Erdogan is the moderating factor. Or do you think, he cares much for human rights and democracy? That is far from saying he is like IS.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Well his son made hundreds of millions / billions from selling directly oil from ISIS held lands, since nobody else wanted to deal with them. His daughter personally built and supervised hospitals in Turkey specifically built to treat wounded ISIS fighters. These are verified public informations, although they obviously deny it. Erdogan is as much pro-ISIS as one can be. Maybe just a political game during complex conflict to fight against US-supported kurds at all costs, maybe not. We don't know.
  - AngaraliTurk 2y ago
    I was giving you the benefit of doubt all this time, but your comments about my country confirms to me that you're misinformed. For all I hate Erdoğan and his attempts to undermine democracy, and I want to see him gone sooner or later, Turkey is as much an Islamic authoritarian state as USA is a Christian authoritarian one under the rule of Trump. There seems to be a tendency to exaggerate the realities on the ground for some reason, and I suspect this is fueled by bots.
    - lukan 2y ago
      I said going the authorian islamic way, not that you are already a califat. Sorry for the missunderstanding, I am aware that turkey is all in all still quite democratic and secular and we seem to both not like the direction Erdogan is heading. My point was, Erdogans influence over the SNA is not comforting me. Btw. I just read, a pro SNA news source: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-astana-format-meeting-in-qatar-agrees-to-step-up-efforts-to-stabilize-syria/3417600 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-astana-format-meeti... It seems the war will continue.
      - j_maffe 2y ago
        Why are you relating authoritarianism with "Islamic way" or even the Caliphates? I've never seen anyone make this claim before, which is, to be honest, quite absurd. Edit: Also your linked article no longer reflects the current stance of Russia.
        lukan 2y ago
        That link I gave is propaganda BS. It claims the syrian army gave the terrorists( SDF) control over the new areas, while in reality they fought with US support against iranian and syrian regime militias. So that iran could not send support without fighting their way through it, maybe a turning point in this war. It was just to illustrate that Erdogans goals are not peace, after Assad is gone.
        j_maffe 2y ago
- MoreMoore 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - j_maffe 2y ago
    > There's not even any hope of it. I love it when online commenters display more confidence in their opinions than experts in the field. Really shows how much value their opinion has.
    - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
      “experts in the field” are a great excuse to manipulate public opinion
    - jampekka 2y ago
      What experts expect Syria to get better? The rebels are led by a rebranding of al-Nusra Front which is widely designated as an islamist terrorist organization.
      - throwup238 2y ago
        The rebels aren’t led by any one group and HTS only has control over some northern provinces. There’s at least four major alliances in play between dozens of rebel groups at the moment, and there’s no one frontrunner to take over.

ssijak 2y ago

Yes, it must be much better now after all the devastation. Same with Lybia, much better place now, no?

j_maffe 2y ago
Why do you insist that it will go the way of Libya? The rebels are calling for a peaceful and democratic transition of the government and the protection of all minorities. They've stopped using Islamist rhetoric for almost 10 years. This is as good of a regime change in Syria as it gets.
- blub 2y ago
  There is no counter-example of thriving democracies developed after western regime change projects. On the other hand, there’s Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - grumple 2y ago
      Also Italy and Austria.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      If the examples springing to mind were in 1945 then that says a lot about how US efforts are going in the modern era. There is no real comparison to how the US handled defeated powers in WWII and how the State Department handles regime changes from ... I want to say the 60s onwards. All the people involved in Germany or Japan's reconstitution are dead (Ed Deming, we miss you; heros of the peace are the most impressive ones). Which is a shame because the 1950s strategy of investment and prosperity made the world much better and the modern strategy of destabilisation tends to make it worse.
      - 2y ago