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I'm glad sodium is having its day in this configuration of using them in batteries. What I'm really trying to understand is how in the blazes we aren't using S
by rzwitserloot 2y ago
I'm glad sodium is having its day in this configuration of using them in batteries.
What I'm really trying to understand is how in the blazes we aren't using Sodium _directly_ as energy transport mechanism.
Using the Castner Process ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castner_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castner_process ) you run the process of (caustic soda + energy) -> (water, oxygen, pure Sodium).
This process is 'perfect' in that you don't get contaminants; you lose nothing in this reaction. (It's decidedly imperfect in that the reverse reaction occurs during, so H2 wafts off, and it needs ~330ºC to run).
This process has been done to death in the early 1900s, but humanity hasn't done this stuff for a 100 years since the invention of a different process that turns NaCl into Sodium and Chlorine gas, because the latter is _also_ valuable, whereas water aint.
It's... perfect. You ship caustic soda which is relative to other energy processes and carriers not all that dangerous (you don't need to store it pressured for example), cheap, extremely abundant to the desert, there you have a massive solar farm that turns into pure clean water and pure Sodium. That's even better than a hypothetical amazing Electrolyzer, because you _need_ water with those, whereas castner _makes_ water. I hear they can use that in the desert. Oh, and the anodes can be made from iron, which is cheap, easy, and abundant. Unlike the material you need to make your anodes from in state of the art water-to-H2 electrolysers!
Ship the sodium back. All you need is clean water. Toss a bucket of water at it and it poofs back into (Heat + H2 + caustic soda). Again, __perfectly__, no losses. You don't need a reactor or a catalyst or pressure; that process just goes automatically, all you need is a bucket and a vessel.
Storing sodium is, despite the youtube movies, easy. Some paper steeped in oil is all you need to wrap it in. It's stable under all 'warehouse temperatures' (-10 to +70), does not need pressure, and __has zero losses during storage__. It's also quite light.
Some back of the envelope math says that it's energy dense enough; a containership full of sodium contains more than enough energy to pay for the trip and then some - about as much H2 you can make with that as a ship with pressurized H2.
I'm guessing I must have messed up that math because this feels like it solves.. everything. Free energy for all. There's enough Sodium the world over, you can start right now (Sodium is already made in industrial quantities for other purposes, so you can just buy a containership's worth right away). Surely after 100 years of science we can improve on the already functional Castner Process. Solar panels are idiotically cheap and plentiful.
You can convert half the sahara, or the entire east coast of Spain, or the sun belt, into a giant solar farm, just ship coastic soda to it and sodium out. More energy than you'll ever need, and you solved the availability problem because you can store it, at no loss at all, effectively forever, at nearly no cost. Any warehouse can be converted into storage for peanuts.
I'd love to know what I'm missing here.
- waldothedog 2y agoSeems like there are some others wearing similar thinking caps, albeit 10 years ago https://doi.org/10.1179/174892407X180928 https://doi.org/10.1179/174892407X180928
- rzwitserloot 2y agoThe author appears to be unfindable, the abstract is clearly talking about something close to this but also mentions adapting existing UK based fossil fuel powerplants, lowballs a bunch of estimates, and somehow brings up a seemingly completely unrelated process that is also well-trodden ground in the distant past but hasn't been used in a century: A way to take the MnCl2 (Manganese-chloride) that is the waste product of an old timey way to make chlorine gas, and get yourself the manganese back out so you can recycle the process. Which flummoxes me because the castner process was the one that _does not_ involve any chlorine. Perhaps the author of this paper is referring to the general principle here, which again is a mystery to me because the castner cycle I am referring to (sodium as an energy transport; [sodium + water] -> [heat, h2, caustic soda] to 'consume' it, [caustic soda + energy -> water, sodium] to produce it) doesn't have waste product at all other than water. How did you find this? It's.. fascinating.
- DennisP 2y agoFor grid storage, maybe the downside compared to batteries is you're limited to turbine efficiency, but it still seems like a good idea.
- DennisP 2y agoJust occurred to me: if on the energy-producing side you're dropping sodium into seawater, then effectively you're getting desalination for free.
- rzwitserloot 2y agoYup. And deserts are pretty good places to build massive solar farms. The more mainstream way of thinking is to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen. Which requires pure water (extremely pure; trying to electrolyze water is difficult and corrodes the anodes and such as is; doing it with salt water? Currently, disastrous, and I believe tons of money is being thrown at that problem with so far no satisfactory results). That means you waste a bunch of your energy on a desal plant just to get clean water out in your desert, and this gets you an ecological disaster as the briny mess (a desal plant converts energy and salt water into plain water... and a boatload of very highly concentrated salt water of course. As the dead sea and such can attest, that stuff pretty much kills an ecosystem, whereever you care to dump it). I did some math and it's not that much water. But, hey, _its water_. It's more than enough to provide free and plenty water to the few people that live in these places. It's not enough to start farming alfalfa or whatever, though.