3 ms·

> What needs to be normalized is a single salary being enough to support a family of four, like it used to be Is this an American thing or just a rich people t

by Swizec 2y ago

> What needs to be normalized is a single salary being enough to support a family of four, like it used to be Is this an American thing or just a rich people thing? I can’t think of a single generation in my family going back to pre-ww2 where this was true. Everyone always worked. At least on the family farm. The farm generations even put their kids to work. Our school system (Slovenia) has certain school vacations timed so kids can help with the harvest.

shermantanktop 2y ago
I think it’s a 20th century middle-class thing, and possibly mostly a USA thing. Before then, the mother usually had help, either paid or relatives. With the advent of home appliances and the impact of WW2, suddenly middle-class families were nuclear only and the wife was supposed to operate the house alone, like a factory worker punching buttons on machines.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
FWIW, school being organized around harvest season was definitely a thing in the agricultural parts of the US when I was growing up. In fact, there were driving permits specifically for children in agricultural communities so that they could legally drive farming vehicles on the roads. During peak harvest season they needed every able body they could get. The farmers would pay the kids a bit of money, which seemed like a lot of money to someone in elementary school.
- AngryData 2y ago
  Maybe they have different rules in other states but in mine the child of a farmer needs no license to drive vehicles on farm business. A 12 year old could be hauling 10 tons of grains behind them on a clapped out 50 year old truck and be legally okay. Or driving a tractors and such down the road.
  - jandrewrogers 2y ago
    Similar by my vague recollection. You could start driving for farm-related stuff at 12 years old but you needed a some type of paper indicating you were authorized by your parents to be driving around without an adult. You could get a more proper early driver’s license at 14.
bsder 2y ago
It a US-centric dumbass nostaligia bullshit thing. I don't know where all these "good jobs that easily supported a family on a single wage earner" existed but I sure as hell didn't know anybody who had one. Yeah, my grandfather worked in the mill. He was one of those "good jobs" everybody blathers about (overhead welder). Our family still grew a garden and raised fowl, and it wasn't because we were "healthy". It was because we were poor. My other grandfather worked in the mines. Also one of those "good jobs"--until he got into an accident, and it shattered his arm. Still needed a garden to make the budget work even before the accident. Yeah, still poor. My Dad was the first generation of college grads in the family and worked as a schoolteacher. He had to work the mill in summers to make ends meet until mandatory minimum salary came online in the state for teachers. He was constantly worred about how he was going to send me to a decent college--especially after the mills went down. Yeah, still poor. Farms are an exception where everybody in the family always got worked like hell. There is a reason why all the farms in the US are dependent upon illegal immigrant labor--the work super sucks shit and you have to pay a lot of money before a legal citizen will take the job. Yeah, super poor. TV wasn't reality. Here's reality: https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/Rs8AAOSw4URhO9dk/s-l500.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/Rs8AAOSw4URhO9dk/s-l50... Men striking in the early 1950s, Truman seizing the mills, and the Supreme Court ruling that unconstitutional. Very "Leave It To Beaver", no? Here's probably one of the better jobs in the mill, a set of machinists. Still a crappy job: https://www.google.com/imgres?q=image%20us%20steel%20mill%20workers%20in%20the%20195%5C0s&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fc8.alamy.com%2Fcomp%2FHH9JKJ%2F1950s-historical-workers-in-factory-using-machines-to-make-steel-parts-HH9JKJ.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alamy.com%2Fstock-photo-1950s-historical-workers-in-factory-using-machines-to-make-steel-parts-131133958.html&docid=xrkvRmjiGYeZmM&tbnid=oUCHpjkehwSZ_M&vet=12ahUKEwj-xauYjpeKAxX-5ckDHb7cDCUQM3oECBgQAA..i&w=1300&h=1375&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-xauYjpeKAxX-5ckDHb7cDCUQM3oECBgQAA https://www.google.com/imgres?q=image%20us%20steel%20mill%20... Steel Strike of 1919: https://www.history.com/news/steel-strike-of-1919-defeat https://www.history.com/news/steel-strike-of-1919-defeat Money quote: "Mike Connolly had a dream: an eight-hour day. A Pennsylvania steel worker for 41 years, he toiled for 12 or more hours a day behind the locked doors of a steel mill with no days off and little hope for the future. If he worked eight hours a day, he imagined, “I could have a garden, a couple of hundred chickens and know my family…This way one doesn’t want to live long. What is the use of living, since one doesn’t enjoy life?”" I desperately wish I could send people from this time back to work one of those "good jobs" they so extol. We'll see how long it takes you before you become a functional alcoholic like the rest of the men working those "good jobs".
osigurdson 2y ago
Working on a family farm is not the same as working a 8-6 job and jamming your kids in childcare for 10 hours per day.

by Swizec 2y ago

shermantanktop 2y ago

I think it’s a 20th century middle-class thing, and possibly mostly a USA thing. Before then, the mother usually had help, either paid or relatives. With the advent of home appliances and the impact of WW2, suddenly middle-class families were nuclear only and the wife was supposed to operate the house alone, like a factory worker punching buttons on machines.

jandrewrogers 2y ago

FWIW, school being organized around harvest season was definitely a thing in the agricultural parts of the US when I was growing up. In fact, there were driving permits specifically for children in agricultural communities so that they could legally drive farming vehicles on the roads. During peak harvest season they needed every able body they could get. The farmers would pay the kids a bit of money, which seemed like a lot of money to someone in elementary school.

AngryData 2y ago
Maybe they have different rules in other states but in mine the child of a farmer needs no license to drive vehicles on farm business. A 12 year old could be hauling 10 tons of grains behind them on a clapped out 50 year old truck and be legally okay. Or driving a tractors and such down the road.
- jandrewrogers 2y ago
  Similar by my vague recollection. You could start driving for farm-related stuff at 12 years old but you needed a some type of paper indicating you were authorized by your parents to be driving around without an adult. You could get a more proper early driver’s license at 14.

bsder 2y ago

It a US-centric dumbass nostaligia bullshit thing. I don't know where all these "good jobs that easily supported a family on a single wage earner" existed but I sure as hell didn't know anybody who had one. Yeah, my grandfather worked in the mill. He was one of those "good jobs" everybody blathers about (overhead welder). Our family still grew a garden and raised fowl, and it wasn't because we were "healthy". It was because we were poor. My other grandfather worked in the mines. Also one of those "good jobs"--until he got into an accident, and it shattered his arm. Still needed a garden to make the budget work even before the accident. Yeah, still poor. My Dad was the first generation of college grads in the family and worked as a schoolteacher. He had to work the mill in summers to make ends meet until mandatory minimum salary came online in the state for teachers. He was constantly worred about how he was going to send me to a decent college--especially after the mills went down. Yeah, still poor. Farms are an exception where everybody in the family always got worked like hell. There is a reason why all the farms in the US are dependent upon illegal immigrant labor--the work super sucks shit and you have to pay a lot of money before a legal citizen will take the job. Yeah, super poor. TV wasn't reality. Here's reality: https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/Rs8AAOSw4URhO9dk/s-l500.jpg https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/Rs8AAOSw4URhO9dk/s-l50... Men striking in the early 1950s, Truman seizing the mills, and the Supreme Court ruling that unconstitutional. Very "Leave It To Beaver", no? Here's probably one of the better jobs in the mill, a set of machinists. Still a crappy job: https://www.google.com/imgres?q=image%20us%20steel%20mill%20workers%20in%20the%20195%5C0s&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fc8.alamy.com%2Fcomp%2FHH9JKJ%2F1950s-historical-workers-in-factory-using-machines-to-make-steel-parts-HH9JKJ.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alamy.com%2Fstock-photo-1950s-historical-workers-in-factory-using-machines-to-make-steel-parts-131133958.html&docid=xrkvRmjiGYeZmM&tbnid=oUCHpjkehwSZ_M&vet=12ahUKEwj-xauYjpeKAxX-5ckDHb7cDCUQM3oECBgQAA..i&w=1300&h=1375&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwj-xauYjpeKAxX-5ckDHb7cDCUQM3oECBgQAA https://www.google.com/imgres?q=image%20us%20steel%20mill%20... Steel Strike of 1919: https://www.history.com/news/steel-strike-of-1919-defeat https://www.history.com/news/steel-strike-of-1919-defeat Money quote: "Mike Connolly had a dream: an eight-hour day. A Pennsylvania steel worker for 41 years, he toiled for 12 or more hours a day behind the locked doors of a steel mill with no days off and little hope for the future. If he worked eight hours a day, he imagined, “I could have a garden, a couple of hundred chickens and know my family…This way one doesn’t want to live long. What is the use of living, since one doesn’t enjoy life?”" I desperately wish I could send people from this time back to work one of those "good jobs" they so extol. We'll see how long it takes you before you become a functional alcoholic like the rest of the men working those "good jobs".

osigurdson 2y ago

Working on a family farm is not the same as working a 8-6 job and jamming your kids in childcare for 10 hours per day.