4 ms·

Not intending to shame OP, but in 2024 with stories like this occurring regularly, I am totally baffled why anyone still trusts Google with anything important.

by voisin 2y ago

Not intending to shame OP, but in 2024 with stories like this occurring regularly, I am totally baffled why anyone still trusts Google with anything important. Make the switch! Run, don’t walk. Do it today. Google is the Scorpion in the parable of the frog and the scorpion - it cannot help its nature. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

loloquwowndueo 2y ago
Which service do you recommend as alternative?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  FastMail, Dropbox, Apple iCloud (Photos, Keychain, etc)
  - pluc 2y ago
    +1 for fastmail, it has built-in backup mechanisms.
  - FagNigKiller 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - politelemon 2y ago
    Would definitely not recommend ecosystems. They can and do lock you out and you have more to lose.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I’m able to get ahold of a human for support with all products I mentioned. I’m unable to get ahold of a human at Google ever for any of their consumer offerings. I see lots of HN threads begging for Google support, I see no HN threads begging for support from any of the companies I listed. You should always have backups, regardless of provider.
- a5c11 2y ago
  I am very happy with Apple and iCloud, seriously. I've got plenty of cloud space for a fair price, it integrates seamlessly with Apple devices, ships with a password manager, you can hide your mail addresses, and other goodies. I've never had a problem with it.
  - n2d4 2y ago
    There are similar stories with Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625875
    - eminent101 2y ago
      Do you or someone else know if Fastmail is any better? If I buy a Fastmail email, what protections exist that would stop them from accidentally or arbitrarily locking me out? And note, I don't live in the US. I'm wondering about this question from a global perspective.
      - yencabulator 2y ago
        1. Use your own domain, to have a migration path out when needed. 2. Use JMAP/IMAP or https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360060590573-Download-all-your-data https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360060590573-Dow... and keep a copy of all your mail locally.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    Last time I went to France, Apple locked my iCloud for the duration until I could get back and login from a USA IP address. They even cancelled my Apple Card. And France is not exactly a suspicious destination, and I go there 4 times every year. I don't think Apple account abuse systems work better than Google's.
- littlecranky67 2y ago
  Proton.
  - xlaacid 2y ago
    100 percent use proton!
- andyjohnson0 2y ago
  Fastmail. But you have to pay.
  - loloquwowndueo 2y ago
    Paying is fine. Makes me the customer, not the product. Was just wondering which alternatives were worth considering :) thanks
- eonmist 2y ago
  postale.io Requires your own domain.
chistev 2y ago
Switch to what?
- Loughla 2y ago
  You don't necessarily need to switch, just ensure Redundancy. If you keep a password database in there, or personal files, keep it on a secure external drive and make backups. Or Dropbox. Or anything. Just keep an extra. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. We have a home media server. Our important data automatically backs new files to a secure folder in there once a week. If I can do it, anyone can. And it could be done easily to an external drive or something that you plug in once a month. Anything. Anything at all. Most companies have backups. There's a reason they do that.
  - eminent101 2y ago
    How does that work in practice? I mean I may keep my data at multiple places. But my government, my hospitals, my utility accounts, they all want my email address to send me OTPs, password reset links and such things that are necessary to prove my digital identity. How do I spread this risk and make it manageable? I have to give them some email address and I fear losing access to my email. And yes, I can lose my email address even if I have my email on my own domain. There are many failure modes for losing domain names. So how do I manage this risk?
    - Loughla 2y ago
      I have secondary account recovery for everything and secondary accounts for everything. If email one doesn't work, my phone and second email does. Where OP went wrong was not updating their phone number when it changed. There's not a lot to be done at that point.
    - tln 2y ago
      Just looking at emails: your choices are to trust someone else's domain -- likely gmail -- or own your own domain + some kind of forwarding or 3rd party mail service. For gmail, you risk account lockout like OP is experiencing. You can mitigate the risk with more recovery options at account.google.com like backup codes. For a service other than gmail, I think the risks of lockout without customer service to help might possibly be less., especially if its paid like fastmail. If you do pay you have the risk of not wanting to pay anymore, or forgetting to pay, and if you don't pay you also have the risk of the service going away. I suppose the service going away is ok. I for one am pretty confident google will keep gmail running as well as possible, so I see other services as a bit more risk there. If you own the domain, you have paid for it and risk someone stealing it or grabbing it when you forget to pay. You can mitigate the risk by choosing a registrar with good security, paying for a longer term or not forgetting, eg a quarterly reminder to review your domain names. You also need to be able to access your registrar account. You can choose registrars you get other services from, like AWS Route 53 if you use amazon for anything, or Cloudflare for VPN, and mitigate the risk of non-payment or non-access because access and payment will be done more frequently. Using your own domain is also more moving parts, decisions, setup, etc. So you risk more things going wrong or fatigue over all the maintenance taking over. How you weigh the monetary and complexity cost of using a domain name for email compared to the upside of control, having a personal site at your own name, etc.
jefftk 2y ago
In this case a big part of the problem seems to be that OP has 2fa enabled but set to a phone number they don't have access to anymore. This is a really tricky situation for any provider to handle.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  And they moved countries. This is some of the most suspicious login activity imaginable. Nobody should be surprised if an account gets locked when you repeatedly try to access it from a new country and without your second factor.
  - taosx 2y ago
    Just to clarify, I moved countries in the past, for the last year I've been in the same country for well over a year.
politelemon 2y ago
This is not an example of malicious activity though.
- eminent101 2y ago
  But your parent comment said: "Google is the Scorpion in the parable of the frog and the scorpion - it cannot help its nature." The scorpion is not malicious in the scorpion and the frog fable. So what's your point?

by voisin 2y ago

loloquwowndueo 2y ago

Which service do you recommend as alternative?

toomuchtodo 2y ago
FastMail, Dropbox, Apple iCloud (Photos, Keychain, etc)
- pluc 2y ago
  +1 for fastmail, it has built-in backup mechanisms.
- FagNigKiller 2y ago
  [flagged]
- politelemon 2y ago
  Would definitely not recommend ecosystems. They can and do lock you out and you have more to lose.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I’m able to get ahold of a human for support with all products I mentioned. I’m unable to get ahold of a human at Google ever for any of their consumer offerings. I see lots of HN threads begging for Google support, I see no HN threads begging for support from any of the companies I listed. You should always have backups, regardless of provider.
a5c11 2y ago
I am very happy with Apple and iCloud, seriously. I've got plenty of cloud space for a fair price, it integrates seamlessly with Apple devices, ships with a password manager, you can hide your mail addresses, and other goodies. I've never had a problem with it.
- n2d4 2y ago
  There are similar stories with Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38625875
  - eminent101 2y ago
    Do you or someone else know if Fastmail is any better? If I buy a Fastmail email, what protections exist that would stop them from accidentally or arbitrarily locking me out? And note, I don't live in the US. I'm wondering about this question from a global perspective.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      1. Use your own domain, to have a migration path out when needed. 2. Use JMAP/IMAP or https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360060590573-Download-all-your-data https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360060590573-Dow... and keep a copy of all your mail locally.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Last time I went to France, Apple locked my iCloud for the duration until I could get back and login from a USA IP address. They even cancelled my Apple Card. And France is not exactly a suspicious destination, and I go there 4 times every year. I don't think Apple account abuse systems work better than Google's.
littlecranky67 2y ago
Proton.
- xlaacid 2y ago
  100 percent use proton!
andyjohnson0 2y ago
Fastmail. But you have to pay.
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago
  Paying is fine. Makes me the customer, not the product. Was just wondering which alternatives were worth considering :) thanks
eonmist 2y ago
postale.io Requires your own domain.

chistev 2y ago

Switch to what?

Loughla 2y ago
You don't necessarily need to switch, just ensure Redundancy. If you keep a password database in there, or personal files, keep it on a secure external drive and make backups. Or Dropbox. Or anything. Just keep an extra. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. We have a home media server. Our important data automatically backs new files to a secure folder in there once a week. If I can do it, anyone can. And it could be done easily to an external drive or something that you plug in once a month. Anything. Anything at all. Most companies have backups. There's a reason they do that.
- eminent101 2y ago
  How does that work in practice? I mean I may keep my data at multiple places. But my government, my hospitals, my utility accounts, they all want my email address to send me OTPs, password reset links and such things that are necessary to prove my digital identity. How do I spread this risk and make it manageable? I have to give them some email address and I fear losing access to my email. And yes, I can lose my email address even if I have my email on my own domain. There are many failure modes for losing domain names. So how do I manage this risk?
  - Loughla 2y ago
    I have secondary account recovery for everything and secondary accounts for everything. If email one doesn't work, my phone and second email does. Where OP went wrong was not updating their phone number when it changed. There's not a lot to be done at that point.
  - tln 2y ago
    Just looking at emails: your choices are to trust someone else's domain -- likely gmail -- or own your own domain + some kind of forwarding or 3rd party mail service. For gmail, you risk account lockout like OP is experiencing. You can mitigate the risk with more recovery options at account.google.com like backup codes. For a service other than gmail, I think the risks of lockout without customer service to help might possibly be less., especially if its paid like fastmail. If you do pay you have the risk of not wanting to pay anymore, or forgetting to pay, and if you don't pay you also have the risk of the service going away. I suppose the service going away is ok. I for one am pretty confident google will keep gmail running as well as possible, so I see other services as a bit more risk there. If you own the domain, you have paid for it and risk someone stealing it or grabbing it when you forget to pay. You can mitigate the risk by choosing a registrar with good security, paying for a longer term or not forgetting, eg a quarterly reminder to review your domain names. You also need to be able to access your registrar account. You can choose registrars you get other services from, like AWS Route 53 if you use amazon for anything, or Cloudflare for VPN, and mitigate the risk of non-payment or non-access because access and payment will be done more frequently. Using your own domain is also more moving parts, decisions, setup, etc. So you risk more things going wrong or fatigue over all the maintenance taking over. How you weigh the monetary and complexity cost of using a domain name for email compared to the upside of control, having a personal site at your own name, etc.

jefftk 2y ago

In this case a big part of the problem seems to be that OP has 2fa enabled but set to a phone number they don't have access to anymore. This is a really tricky situation for any provider to handle.

jeffbee 2y ago
And they moved countries. This is some of the most suspicious login activity imaginable. Nobody should be surprised if an account gets locked when you repeatedly try to access it from a new country and without your second factor.
- taosx 2y ago
  Just to clarify, I moved countries in the past, for the last year I've been in the same country for well over a year.

politelemon 2y ago

This is not an example of malicious activity though.

eminent101 2y ago
But your parent comment said: "Google is the Scorpion in the parable of the frog and the scorpion - it cannot help its nature." The scorpion is not malicious in the scorpion and the frog fable. So what's your point?