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> There is a lot of middle ground between "brushing it off" and cancelling a whole election and throwing the choice of millions of voters to the trash. If elec

> There is a lot of middle ground between "brushing it off" and cancelling a whole election and throwing the choice of millions of voters to the trash. If elections are rigged, the results cannot be accepted under any circumstances. Using shady, undeclared capital in elections amounts to cheating and invites outside influence. This is a serious issue because we entrust the governance of nations to those elected by the people. Democracy only functions if the outcomes cannot be bought. While no system is ever 100% immune to corruption, blatant disregard for election laws cannot be taken lightly. If irregularities occur, people can vote again. Yes, redoing elections costs time and money, but if voters still choose the same leaders after understanding how they gained power, then that's democracy in action. For me, the line is very clear because I've seen it blurred so many times in Turkey, where I come from, and I’ve witnessed the devastating consequences.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>Democracy only functions if the outcomes cannot be bought. Then by definition absolutely every democratic country/society does not function, because guess what: It takes truly stupid amounts of money to win an election. Ergo, you need to buy the election. Every single candidate and party and reform movement who have argued for removing money from democratic politics have all lost/failed without a single exception. You absolutely cannot win an election without money, without buying it. The only saving grace is that the guy who spends the most money doesn't always win. We can go on for years about how it's stupid you need money to win an election, how the amount of money is despicable, how the world is unfair. Whatever: We aren't living in ideal dreams, we're living in the brutally unfair and practical reality.
- egeozcan 2y ago
  Yes, you need stupid amounts of money to win, and I see that as normal in capitalist countries given how significant winning is. However, there's also an obligation to disclose the funding sources so people can decide whether they agree with them. Some may downplay the importance of this, but I see it as absolutely crucial.
rayiner 2y ago
It poisonous to say elections are “rigged” unless you can prove votes were manipulated. Otherwise you’re opening the door to wide ranging grievances to second guess election results. By your logic, the U.S. should have redone the 2020 election because U.S. intelligence agencies pressured Facebook and Twitter to suppress information that could have hurt Biden. Do you really want to open the door to claims like that?
- danicriss 2y ago
  There are a few seemingly minor details missing from the conversation above: - his support seems to have come exclusively from externally coordinated online campaigns - his support increased dramatically within the last 2 weeks before the election Supporting point 1, remember that he declared zero campaign expenses and never explained how he ran his campaign Regarding the second point, the urgency under which his campaign took off and the proximity to the elections allowed him to elude mass-media scrutiny. A lot of shady details were unveiled since he became popular, which arguably would've made him unpalatable for a lot of his voters ISW has a fairly good synopsis of the findings from the Romanian secret services here: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/likely-kremlin-backed-election-interference-against-romania-threatens-bucharests https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/likely-kremlin... If you want a comparison to the US political situation, this is not your "Twitter did something shady which bumped Trump's result by 2 percentage points" A better translation is: Chase Oliver wins the White House! (If you wonder who that guy is, Google him - that's what Romanians had to do with CG after the election night; he was on the ballot and you didn't even know it). All while declaring zero expenses. NSA and CIA suspect foreign interference. His only campaign was on TikTok. Looked eerily similar to Ukraine, Georgia (the country) and Moldova's Russian influence campaigns. He eluded TikTok's swarming detection algorithms. He was unknown until late October - the campaign started in earnest 2 weeks before Halloween. Oh, and he actually looks like RFK jr., talks like RFK jr., just didn't have the same notoriety going into the election
- egeozcan 2y ago
  > It poisonous to say elections are “rigged” unless you can prove votes were manipulated The votes were grossly manipulated through undisclosed funding. This would cancel the results in any democratic country.
exe34 2y ago
> Democracy only functions if the outcomes cannot be bought but if a South African gave away $1M a day to support his candidate in the US, would that be foreign interference?
- extraduder_ire 2y ago
  Is this South African also a US citizen? I think that matters.
  - exe34 2y ago
    he was an illegal immigrant, but he bought his way to citizenship. would that make a difference?

Dalewyn 2y ago

>Democracy only functions if the outcomes cannot be bought. Then by definition absolutely every democratic country/society does not function, because guess what: It takes truly stupid amounts of money to win an election. Ergo, you need to buy the election. Every single candidate and party and reform movement who have argued for removing money from democratic politics have all lost/failed without a single exception. You absolutely cannot win an election without money, without buying it. The only saving grace is that the guy who spends the most money doesn't always win. We can go on for years about how it's stupid you need money to win an election, how the amount of money is despicable, how the world is unfair. Whatever: We aren't living in ideal dreams, we're living in the brutally unfair and practical reality.

egeozcan 2y ago
Yes, you need stupid amounts of money to win, and I see that as normal in capitalist countries given how significant winning is. However, there's also an obligation to disclose the funding sources so people can decide whether they agree with them. Some may downplay the importance of this, but I see it as absolutely crucial.

rayiner 2y ago

It poisonous to say elections are “rigged” unless you can prove votes were manipulated. Otherwise you’re opening the door to wide ranging grievances to second guess election results. By your logic, the U.S. should have redone the 2020 election because U.S. intelligence agencies pressured Facebook and Twitter to suppress information that could have hurt Biden. Do you really want to open the door to claims like that?

danicriss 2y ago
There are a few seemingly minor details missing from the conversation above: - his support seems to have come exclusively from externally coordinated online campaigns - his support increased dramatically within the last 2 weeks before the election Supporting point 1, remember that he declared zero campaign expenses and never explained how he ran his campaign Regarding the second point, the urgency under which his campaign took off and the proximity to the elections allowed him to elude mass-media scrutiny. A lot of shady details were unveiled since he became popular, which arguably would've made him unpalatable for a lot of his voters ISW has a fairly good synopsis of the findings from the Romanian secret services here: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/likely-kremlin-backed-election-interference-against-romania-threatens-bucharests https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/likely-kremlin... If you want a comparison to the US political situation, this is not your "Twitter did something shady which bumped Trump's result by 2 percentage points" A better translation is: Chase Oliver wins the White House! (If you wonder who that guy is, Google him - that's what Romanians had to do with CG after the election night; he was on the ballot and you didn't even know it). All while declaring zero expenses. NSA and CIA suspect foreign interference. His only campaign was on TikTok. Looked eerily similar to Ukraine, Georgia (the country) and Moldova's Russian influence campaigns. He eluded TikTok's swarming detection algorithms. He was unknown until late October - the campaign started in earnest 2 weeks before Halloween. Oh, and he actually looks like RFK jr., talks like RFK jr., just didn't have the same notoriety going into the election
egeozcan 2y ago
> It poisonous to say elections are “rigged” unless you can prove votes were manipulated The votes were grossly manipulated through undisclosed funding. This would cancel the results in any democratic country.

exe34 2y ago

> Democracy only functions if the outcomes cannot be bought but if a South African gave away $1M a day to support his candidate in the US, would that be foreign interference?

extraduder_ire 2y ago
Is this South African also a US citizen? I think that matters.
- exe34 2y ago
  he was an illegal immigrant, but he bought his way to citizenship. would that make a difference?