4 ms·

So? Do you suggest that some people in Romania (and well.. applies to many other countries just as much) should lose the right to vote because they are too dumb

So? Do you suggest that some people in Romania (and well.. applies to many other countries just as much) should lose the right to vote because they are too dumb and are easily tricked (I mean I certainly agree that they are)? Because what other options are there?

stubish 2y ago
Propaganda channels need to be shut down and replaced with information sources. While originating with politicians, the advertising industry has turned propaganda into a science you can study at University and this is the result - populations, not just dumb individuals, without agency, and democracy just a game to be played by the manipulators. Political truth and spending laws also need to be become agile, because the US election showed you can dump billions into disinformation if you are fast enough to not be blocked until after the election. But it is toothless while someone outside of your legal framework gets to choose the next leader by hiring a marketing graduate and giving them an advertising budget.
- Saline9515 2y ago
  The argument is doubled edged and typically what a totalitarian government could say to close competing media outlets. It is quite ironical that the main newspaper in the Soviet Union was called la Pravda = "the truth".
  - ANewFormation 2y ago
    They also had Novosti = the news. It led to a fun joke: "Why do we have two newspapers, Truth and News? Well that's because there's no truth in News, and no news in Truth." Alot of these old Soviet jokes are becoming quite appropriate again. What times we live in.
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    This is true. But nonetheless, it is double edged. Not a fan of closing down sources, more a fan of education and inoculation of the population against misinformation. But that takes decades. And this is now. Not sure what is the best course of action.
    - Saline9515 2y ago
      People are the sole judge. If you have to nudge them to vote the right way it's not democracy.
  - stubish 2y ago
    Independent courts, not the government, need to determine truth, along with penalties for lying or abusing the system. Any government, not just totalitarian ones, will abuse it if they have opportunity. Just have to hope the courts remain independent or that people notice if the government attempts to nobble the system. There are a number of regions with laws like this that haven't descended into totalitarian states.
    - Saline9515 2y ago
      We had this for a long time in Europe. It forced everyone to recognize that God did exist and that the sun revolved around the earth. Worked really great!
      - stubish 2y ago
        Hence independent courts, independent from church and state. It also helps to have embraced rationalism and the scientific method.
maeil 2y ago
I think most of suggest that large-scale targeted foreign interference, and benefiting from it, should be illegal qnd have consequences which may include overturning results. And that's the case here, as it is in most countries. I don't think we have to explain why.
- tiahura 2y ago
  How many likes from foreigners on tiktok should a candidate be allowed to receive? Are all foreign countries to be treated equally, or are some foreigners ok?
petre 2y ago
The're not losing the right to vote, they just get to do it all over again, hopefully without another state actor tainting the ballot. And without inept politicians combining the presidential and parliamentary elections over the course of two weeks, giving Russia the unique opportunity to manipulate both at the same time. The secret service was probably ignored, because they had the correct assessment ready.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  So unless they disqualify that guy why would the outcome change that much?
  - petre 2y ago
    Dunno, people are already brainwashed with Russian propaganda and convinced that the majority party somehow stole the elections, when in fact they're as surprised as everyone else. If they disqualify the guy his votes would likly go to another borderline fascist candidate who's also allegedly backed by Russia. His party took place #2 in the parliamentary elections. He has been formerly declared persona non grata in Moldova and Ukraine, due to unionist, anti Ukrainian actity and links to the GRU. They already disqualified another candidate due to anti EU and anti NATO affiliations, who's also openly pro Russian and a regular at events hosted at their embassy. I think it was a mistake because her votes went to this other crazy person who made it to round two. Russia backed not one but three trojan horse candidates in these elections. This is how important it is for them to derail that country from its Euroatlantic path. Romania now has three right wing parties with over 30% in its parliament and a cancelled presidential election.

stubish 2y ago

Propaganda channels need to be shut down and replaced with information sources. While originating with politicians, the advertising industry has turned propaganda into a science you can study at University and this is the result - populations, not just dumb individuals, without agency, and democracy just a game to be played by the manipulators. Political truth and spending laws also need to be become agile, because the US election showed you can dump billions into disinformation if you are fast enough to not be blocked until after the election. But it is toothless while someone outside of your legal framework gets to choose the next leader by hiring a marketing graduate and giving them an advertising budget.

Saline9515 2y ago
The argument is doubled edged and typically what a totalitarian government could say to close competing media outlets. It is quite ironical that the main newspaper in the Soviet Union was called la Pravda = "the truth".
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  They also had Novosti = the news. It led to a fun joke: "Why do we have two newspapers, Truth and News? Well that's because there's no truth in News, and no news in Truth." Alot of these old Soviet jokes are becoming quite appropriate again. What times we live in.
- RealityVoid 2y ago
  This is true. But nonetheless, it is double edged. Not a fan of closing down sources, more a fan of education and inoculation of the population against misinformation. But that takes decades. And this is now. Not sure what is the best course of action.
  - Saline9515 2y ago
    People are the sole judge. If you have to nudge them to vote the right way it's not democracy.
- stubish 2y ago
  Independent courts, not the government, need to determine truth, along with penalties for lying or abusing the system. Any government, not just totalitarian ones, will abuse it if they have opportunity. Just have to hope the courts remain independent or that people notice if the government attempts to nobble the system. There are a number of regions with laws like this that haven't descended into totalitarian states.
  - Saline9515 2y ago
    We had this for a long time in Europe. It forced everyone to recognize that God did exist and that the sun revolved around the earth. Worked really great!
    - stubish 2y ago
      Hence independent courts, independent from church and state. It also helps to have embraced rationalism and the scientific method.

maeil 2y ago

I think most of suggest that large-scale targeted foreign interference, and benefiting from it, should be illegal qnd have consequences which may include overturning results. And that's the case here, as it is in most countries. I don't think we have to explain why.

tiahura 2y ago
How many likes from foreigners on tiktok should a candidate be allowed to receive? Are all foreign countries to be treated equally, or are some foreigners ok?

petre 2y ago

The're not losing the right to vote, they just get to do it all over again, hopefully without another state actor tainting the ballot. And without inept politicians combining the presidential and parliamentary elections over the course of two weeks, giving Russia the unique opportunity to manipulate both at the same time. The secret service was probably ignored, because they had the correct assessment ready.

wqaatwt 2y ago
So unless they disqualify that guy why would the outcome change that much?
- petre 2y ago
  Dunno, people are already brainwashed with Russian propaganda and convinced that the majority party somehow stole the elections, when in fact they're as surprised as everyone else. If they disqualify the guy his votes would likly go to another borderline fascist candidate who's also allegedly backed by Russia. His party took place #2 in the parliamentary elections. He has been formerly declared persona non grata in Moldova and Ukraine, due to unionist, anti Ukrainian actity and links to the GRU. They already disqualified another candidate due to anti EU and anti NATO affiliations, who's also openly pro Russian and a regular at events hosted at their embassy. I think it was a mistake because her votes went to this other crazy person who made it to round two. Russia backed not one but three trojan horse candidates in these elections. This is how important it is for them to derail that country from its Euroatlantic path. Romania now has three right wing parties with over 30% in its parliament and a cancelled presidential election.