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> if you can become a president by buying TikTok He didn't though and I doubt he could. He got 23% of the vote which is a lot but in no way does it guarantee t

> if you can become a president by buying TikTok He didn't though and I doubt he could. He got 23% of the vote which is a lot but in no way does it guarantee that he could ever come close to 50% in the second round. He only won because the non pro-Russian (i.e. pro-fascist) parties aren't actually united.

rdtsc 2y ago
> pro-Russian (i.e. pro-fascist) It's a bit funny that pro-Russian ones are considered pro-fascist, even as Russian government is fighting allegedly "fascist" Ukranians, and their official goal of their war is to "denazi-fy" it. "-You're the fascists!" / "-Oh I don't think so, you are the real fascists" / "-No, way, you are!" etc. But to be serious, and not being too familiar with the situation, if this guy is a fascist, how the heck did he get 23% of the votes? We're talking about a EU country not North Korea or something of that sort.
- data_maan 2y ago
  [flagged]
- bgnn 2y ago
  Eastern Europe is very different. Years of eastern-block, and the poverty afterwards does that to you.
  - nuker 2y ago
    Yep. I just read this, following the wiki link of OP, and it starts make sense :( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C8%99i_pogrom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C8%99i_pogrom
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > pro-Russian ones are considered pro-fascist If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck (even if that duck claims that it's an elephant and keeps saying that everyone else is a duck). I mean... objectively Russia ticks pretty much all of the boxes, just compare it with Mussolini's Italy.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > I mean... objectively Russia ticks pretty much all of the boxes, just compare it with Mussolini's Italy. Is Putin's ideology a form of "fascism"? Some scholars say "yes", others say "no". Since you already seem to have a good awareness of the "yes" case, let me share with you some of the "no" case [0]: > “Snyder is wrong,” Nikolay Mitrokhin, a Russia researcher with Germany’s Bremen University, told Al Jazeera. > Russia doesn’t meet the criteria of a fascist state – there is no ideological party, no hysterical cult of the leader, and no revolutionary new regime juxtaposed to the old one. > Instead, in Russia, “there is an aggressive, imperialist, authoritarian state with a ruling junta”, Mitrokhin said. I'm not a fan of Putin – I have always been cheering for Ukraine in the present war, and I think it is disappointing it has not gone better for the Ukrainians, but I suppose hope springs eternal – but I also think the word "fascism" is overused nowadays, and I prefer narrower definitions like that of Mitrokhin – the broader definitions miss significant aspects of what Mussolini was actually on about. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-putins-views https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-pu...
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      It ticks all the boxes from the Wikipedia definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism Authoritarian+, and ultranationalist+, ... dictatorial leader+, centralized autocracy+, militarism+, forcible suppression of opposition+, belief in a natural social hierarchy (+ as far as regime goes), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation+ or race, and strong regimentation of society+ and the economy+
      - skissane 2y ago
        The same article also says: > Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[28] Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow. According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[30] So, rather than purporting to define "fascism", the article acknowledges it has many definitions and it is contested which one is right. Read in the context of the whole section "Definitions", I don't think the opening sentence should be read as a definition, except in a very vague ballpark sense, which isn't meant to be used in decisively answering the question of whether any particular thing is an instance of it. Furthermore, it mentions key elements of historical fascism – anti-communism, anti-conservatism, and anti-liberalism – whose presence in Putin's Russia is debatable. Putin has criticised communism, but he tends to go for nuanced and qualified criticism rather than the demonisation of it which was historically found in Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany or Franco's Spain. He isn't anti-conservative either. Nor is he rhetorically opposed to parliamentary liberalism – he is accused of undermining the substance of it, but he pays it lip service, unlike Mussolini and Hitler who demonised it. The first actual definition it gives in the "Definition" section is this: > Historian Stanley G. Payne's definition is frequently cited as standard by notable scholars,[31] such as Roger Griffin,[32] Randall Schweller,[33] Bo Rothstein,[34] Federico Finchelstein,[35] and Stephen D. Shenfield,[36] [37] His definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: And the first of those three concepts is: > "Fascist negations" – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism. I say Putin lacks all three – he isn't anti-liberal (you can say he is in a contemporary sense, but not in the historical sense that Mussolini was, which is I believe the sense Payne means), he isn't anti-communist (again, not in the sense Mussolini/etc were), and he isn't anti-conservative.
- reshlo 2y ago
  > if this guy is a fascist, how the heck did he get 23% of the votes? Many of us are asking similar questions of the country that just reelected a man who regularly and openly expresses fascist sentiments, incited an insurrection and attempted to commit a coup. Comparing Romania to North Korea instead of to that country is an… interesting choice.
  - rdtsc 2y ago
    > any of us are asking similar questions of the country that just reelected a man who regularly and openly expresses fascist sentiments Madness. Fascism is everywhere these days, it seems!
- Ygg2 2y ago
  > are considered pro-fascist If you were to look into Devil's dictionary for the year 2024, you'd see: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) - people I disagree with.
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    How about people that say that actual fascists were good people and have anti-smemitical discourse and use word for word fascist speeches and denie the existence of victims in these hideous systems? How do you call those?
    - Ygg2 2y ago
      Since I would disagree with them, they are also fascist. Also extreme right. I'm sorry but calling everyone Fascist/Nazist has semantically watered down the meaning.
      - freen 2y ago
        The gulag doesn’t care.
- freen 2y ago
  Italy, Germany, Spain… Mussolini, Hitler, Franco… Fascists don’t come out and say: Vote for me, and I’ll commit genocide, and have thought police and assassination squads! No: fascists want power, will use that power to take aways yours, and have absolutely no compunction about lying, cheating, and stealing to get that power. Fascists will say till they are blue in the face that you are violating their rights in order to get power, and will claim to support those rights right up until they get power. And then? Freedom of What now? To the gulag with you!

rdtsc 2y ago

> pro-Russian (i.e. pro-fascist) It's a bit funny that pro-Russian ones are considered pro-fascist, even as Russian government is fighting allegedly "fascist" Ukranians, and their official goal of their war is to "denazi-fy" it. "-You're the fascists!" / "-Oh I don't think so, you are the real fascists" / "-No, way, you are!" etc. But to be serious, and not being too familiar with the situation, if this guy is a fascist, how the heck did he get 23% of the votes? We're talking about a EU country not North Korea or something of that sort.

data_maan 2y ago
[flagged]
bgnn 2y ago
Eastern Europe is very different. Years of eastern-block, and the poverty afterwards does that to you.
- nuker 2y ago
  Yep. I just read this, following the wiki link of OP, and it starts make sense :( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C8%99i_pogrom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C8%99i_pogrom
Wytwwww 2y ago
> pro-Russian ones are considered pro-fascist If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck (even if that duck claims that it's an elephant and keeps saying that everyone else is a duck). I mean... objectively Russia ticks pretty much all of the boxes, just compare it with Mussolini's Italy.
- skissane 2y ago
  > I mean... objectively Russia ticks pretty much all of the boxes, just compare it with Mussolini's Italy. Is Putin's ideology a form of "fascism"? Some scholars say "yes", others say "no". Since you already seem to have a good awareness of the "yes" case, let me share with you some of the "no" case [0]: > “Snyder is wrong,” Nikolay Mitrokhin, a Russia researcher with Germany’s Bremen University, told Al Jazeera. > Russia doesn’t meet the criteria of a fascist state – there is no ideological party, no hysterical cult of the leader, and no revolutionary new regime juxtaposed to the old one. > Instead, in Russia, “there is an aggressive, imperialist, authoritarian state with a ruling junta”, Mitrokhin said. I'm not a fan of Putin – I have always been cheering for Ukraine in the present war, and I think it is disappointing it has not gone better for the Ukrainians, but I suppose hope springs eternal – but I also think the word "fascism" is overused nowadays, and I prefer narrower definitions like that of Mitrokhin – the broader definitions miss significant aspects of what Mussolini was actually on about. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-putins-views https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-pu...
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    It ticks all the boxes from the Wikipedia definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism Authoritarian+, and ultranationalist+, ... dictatorial leader+, centralized autocracy+, militarism+, forcible suppression of opposition+, belief in a natural social hierarchy (+ as far as regime goes), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation+ or race, and strong regimentation of society+ and the economy+
    - skissane 2y ago
      The same article also says: > Historian Ian Kershaw once wrote that "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."[28] Each group described as "fascist" has at least some unique elements, and frequently definitions of "fascism" have been criticized as either too broad or too narrow. According to many scholars, fascists—especially when they're in power—have historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.[30] So, rather than purporting to define "fascism", the article acknowledges it has many definitions and it is contested which one is right. Read in the context of the whole section "Definitions", I don't think the opening sentence should be read as a definition, except in a very vague ballpark sense, which isn't meant to be used in decisively answering the question of whether any particular thing is an instance of it. Furthermore, it mentions key elements of historical fascism – anti-communism, anti-conservatism, and anti-liberalism – whose presence in Putin's Russia is debatable. Putin has criticised communism, but he tends to go for nuanced and qualified criticism rather than the demonisation of it which was historically found in Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany or Franco's Spain. He isn't anti-conservative either. Nor is he rhetorically opposed to parliamentary liberalism – he is accused of undermining the substance of it, but he pays it lip service, unlike Mussolini and Hitler who demonised it. The first actual definition it gives in the "Definition" section is this: > Historian Stanley G. Payne's definition is frequently cited as standard by notable scholars,[31] such as Roger Griffin,[32] Randall Schweller,[33] Bo Rothstein,[34] Federico Finchelstein,[35] and Stephen D. Shenfield,[36] [37] His definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: And the first of those three concepts is: > "Fascist negations" – anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism. I say Putin lacks all three – he isn't anti-liberal (you can say he is in a contemporary sense, but not in the historical sense that Mussolini was, which is I believe the sense Payne means), he isn't anti-communist (again, not in the sense Mussolini/etc were), and he isn't anti-conservative.
reshlo 2y ago
> if this guy is a fascist, how the heck did he get 23% of the votes? Many of us are asking similar questions of the country that just reelected a man who regularly and openly expresses fascist sentiments, incited an insurrection and attempted to commit a coup. Comparing Romania to North Korea instead of to that country is an… interesting choice.
- rdtsc 2y ago
  > any of us are asking similar questions of the country that just reelected a man who regularly and openly expresses fascist sentiments Madness. Fascism is everywhere these days, it seems!
Ygg2 2y ago
> are considered pro-fascist If you were to look into Devil's dictionary for the year 2024, you'd see: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) - people I disagree with.
- RealityVoid 2y ago
  How about people that say that actual fascists were good people and have anti-smemitical discourse and use word for word fascist speeches and denie the existence of victims in these hideous systems? How do you call those?
  - Ygg2 2y ago
    Since I would disagree with them, they are also fascist. Also extreme right. I'm sorry but calling everyone Fascist/Nazist has semantically watered down the meaning.
    - freen 2y ago
      The gulag doesn’t care.
freen 2y ago
Italy, Germany, Spain… Mussolini, Hitler, Franco… Fascists don’t come out and say: Vote for me, and I’ll commit genocide, and have thought police and assassination squads! No: fascists want power, will use that power to take aways yours, and have absolutely no compunction about lying, cheating, and stealing to get that power. Fascists will say till they are blue in the face that you are violating their rights in order to get power, and will claim to support those rights right up until they get power. And then? Freedom of What now? To the gulag with you!