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> Try testing for internationally recognized borders and the situation is same for the Israeli invasion and Russian invasion. I do not understand your point. U

> Try testing for internationally recognized borders and the situation is same for the Israeli invasion and Russian invasion. I do not understand your point. Ukraine has borders that were recognized by Russia itself (Budapest Memorandum). They violated those borders when they annexed Crimea-- their excuse: those people want to be part of our empire-- ok. 8 years later they marched on Kyiv-- whats even the excuse for that? Do you think the people in Kyiv want to be liberated from their president, and governed by some Russian oligarch? If Russia is in a similar situation than Israel, then were are the massive acts of terrorism against Russian citizens comparable to October 7th? Where are the missiles fired towards Moscow, before 2014?

mrtksn 2y ago
I don't know why you interpret my comment like that, I don't support Russia, I say that Israel is just like Russia from that standpoint. Are you by any chance assuming that Israel is absolutely innocent, therefore I must be claiming that Russia must be also innocent? It's the other way around, they are both aggressor and invaders. Anyone claiming that countries shouldn't invade other countries and respect the internationally recognized borders then should support Ukraine and Palestine.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    They should have solved it before 7th of October and if that was not possible they shouldn't have been committing AI assisted genocide. Sometimes you screw up with your intelligence and diplomacy, you take a hit and this still doesn't give you a right to genocide. The same for the Palestinians BTW, you screw up lose a war get occupied and you still don'y get right to do terror attacks. I'm actually fan of Israel, It's a country I want to visit a lot and I actually admire the things they achieved in that barely livable land. Which makes me extra sad too see into what they have turned.
    - dunekid 2y ago
      > barely livable land You don't get the three major religions with community at the core, in a place like Mars. It is Mediterranean coast with documented habitation spanning millenia. The incredibly dehumanising colonial propaganda, that is a land without people for a people without land, is just that; A dehumanising propaganda which reduces the native population to savages and not-human.
  - pphysch 2y ago
    > Russias invasion of Ukraine on the other hand, does not have an October 7th Zelensky massed the largest land army in Europe excluding Russia, and then in March 2021 officially declared imminent war on Russia. Only then did Russia start heavily militarizing its border and a year later, after many failed attempts at diplomacy, formally invaded. Gaza can't even do many of the these things because they don't have statehood, much less a real army. It is offensively disingenuous to argue that Israel's genocide and illegal occupation is justified by Oct 7, but Russian military operations can never be justified even by an official and credible declaration of war by military-peer Ukraine.
    - myrmidon 2y ago
      What was the justification for annexing Crimea in 2014 then? Your timeline seems a bit biased to me, because having a big part of your nation annexed by a neighboring army seems like a reasonable cause for shoring up your land defenses to me. Do you also dispute that there were Russian troops on Ukrainian territory before 2021, fighting alongside Ukrainian separatists with Russian provided materiel? Because there is a long report on this, since they accidentally shot down a civilian airliner...
      - pphysch 2y ago
        > thinks Israel-Palestine conflict started on October 7. > "but what about 8 years before 2022 Russian invasion?" I'm not going to engage further with this obviously bad faith trolling. No point. Have a good weekend!
        myrmidon 2y ago
        I'm not "bad faith trolling". Unlike a troll, I actually stand behind my points instead of taking up some arbitrary contrarian position which I then shift around whenever parts of it become untenable to defend. Also note that accusing others of trolling or shilling is against the site guidelines. > thinks Israel-Palestine conflict started on October 7. I most certainly did not think or say that. But this was a discussion about the analogies between the Ukraine war and the Israel/Palestine massacres, and bringing up '67 or the first intifada would have been about as relevant to that discussion as Holodomor or the Ukrainian Peoples Republic short history (which is why I did not talk about any of those). > "but what about 8 years before 2022 Russian invasion?" My point is that you picked a highly arbitrary date to support your position-- pretending like Ukraine set up the conditions for war with Russia out of the blue, followed by honest diplomatic attempts and a formally declared war from Russia out of any other options. This is simply not the case: Russia built up its invasion troops months before attempting the invasion, and its fishing for excuses, false-flag operations covered ceaselessly in state media (to manipulate public opinion) and efforts to misrepresent the Donbas situation are quite well documented. There also never was a formal declaration of war, and calling the march on a sovereign nations capital a "peacekeeping operation" seems a bit of a stretch to me. I honestly believe that there could have been genuine reasons for Russia to involve itself in the Ukraine-- even to send soldiers into the Donbas. But insisting that Russia shifted troops into Belarus to help or protect the people in Donetsk and Luhansk is frankly insulting (given hindsight).
dukeofdoom 2y ago
The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin. So It's not so clear cut. The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm. Just ask yourself where Zelensky came from and why he stashes his generational wealth in the states. Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them. Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources. This is just Western colonialism. Ask any Indian how fond they are of British colonialism.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin Yes, this is what Russian state media insinuated. If Russias utmost effort was to protect the minorities in Ukraines east, spearheading a peace-keeping effort would have made a lot of sense (even stationing army there, possibly). But this is not what happened, Russia fanned the flames in that region instead, aiding the separatists with undercover soldiers and materiel `(this is very well documented because they shot down a civilian airliner by mistake, which pissed of the dutch victims and their government to no end, investigating the whole clusterfuck in excruciating detail). > The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm. Insisting on Zelensky being a non-democratic puppet government is a bit rich after Putin had his last political opponent poisoned, but ok... > Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them Because they are at war. > Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources. So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists? Why is Russia helping those colonialists in your opinion? Who exactly are those colonialists? Germany? UK? France?
  - dukeofdoom 2y ago
    Navalny went through a trail (Russian legal process), was found guilty of corruption and died in prison of a blood clot. Please provide proof of poisoning ... Alexei Navalny's popularity within Russia was always a western media fabrication, and at best a whole lot of wishful thinking. Navalny was a fringe candidate, with about the same amount of popularity as Chris Christi, and pushed and financed be the same neocons. To what degree Russia is democratic can be disputed, but the fact is that Putin still has the backing of a vast, vast majority of Russian people. There are J6 political opponents still rotting in jail on decade long sentences over protesting a highly suspicious election. Some have been kept in solitarily confinement (torture) and some have also died in prison. So Jailing political opposition is done in the states at this point too. Trump survived two assassination attempts. Biden a less popular candidate (as proven by this election) had his justice department attempt to jail him for hundreds of years. >So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists? Russia voluntarily let Ukraine secede from the USSR under certain conditions, which they have not kept. If Ukrainians have a right to self determination. Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine does as well.

mrtksn 2y ago

I don't know why you interpret my comment like that, I don't support Russia, I say that Israel is just like Russia from that standpoint. Are you by any chance assuming that Israel is absolutely innocent, therefore I must be claiming that Russia must be also innocent? It's the other way around, they are both aggressor and invaders. Anyone claiming that countries shouldn't invade other countries and respect the internationally recognized borders then should support Ukraine and Palestine.

myrmidon 2y ago
[flagged]
- mrtksn 2y ago
  They should have solved it before 7th of October and if that was not possible they shouldn't have been committing AI assisted genocide. Sometimes you screw up with your intelligence and diplomacy, you take a hit and this still doesn't give you a right to genocide. The same for the Palestinians BTW, you screw up lose a war get occupied and you still don'y get right to do terror attacks. I'm actually fan of Israel, It's a country I want to visit a lot and I actually admire the things they achieved in that barely livable land. Which makes me extra sad too see into what they have turned.
  - dunekid 2y ago
    > barely livable land You don't get the three major religions with community at the core, in a place like Mars. It is Mediterranean coast with documented habitation spanning millenia. The incredibly dehumanising colonial propaganda, that is a land without people for a people without land, is just that; A dehumanising propaganda which reduces the native population to savages and not-human.
- pphysch 2y ago
  > Russias invasion of Ukraine on the other hand, does not have an October 7th Zelensky massed the largest land army in Europe excluding Russia, and then in March 2021 officially declared imminent war on Russia. Only then did Russia start heavily militarizing its border and a year later, after many failed attempts at diplomacy, formally invaded. Gaza can't even do many of the these things because they don't have statehood, much less a real army. It is offensively disingenuous to argue that Israel's genocide and illegal occupation is justified by Oct 7, but Russian military operations can never be justified even by an official and credible declaration of war by military-peer Ukraine.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    What was the justification for annexing Crimea in 2014 then? Your timeline seems a bit biased to me, because having a big part of your nation annexed by a neighboring army seems like a reasonable cause for shoring up your land defenses to me. Do you also dispute that there were Russian troops on Ukrainian territory before 2021, fighting alongside Ukrainian separatists with Russian provided materiel? Because there is a long report on this, since they accidentally shot down a civilian airliner...
    - pphysch 2y ago
      > thinks Israel-Palestine conflict started on October 7. > "but what about 8 years before 2022 Russian invasion?" I'm not going to engage further with this obviously bad faith trolling. No point. Have a good weekend!
      - myrmidon 2y ago
        I'm not "bad faith trolling". Unlike a troll, I actually stand behind my points instead of taking up some arbitrary contrarian position which I then shift around whenever parts of it become untenable to defend. Also note that accusing others of trolling or shilling is against the site guidelines. > thinks Israel-Palestine conflict started on October 7. I most certainly did not think or say that. But this was a discussion about the analogies between the Ukraine war and the Israel/Palestine massacres, and bringing up '67 or the first intifada would have been about as relevant to that discussion as Holodomor or the Ukrainian Peoples Republic short history (which is why I did not talk about any of those). > "but what about 8 years before 2022 Russian invasion?" My point is that you picked a highly arbitrary date to support your position-- pretending like Ukraine set up the conditions for war with Russia out of the blue, followed by honest diplomatic attempts and a formally declared war from Russia out of any other options. This is simply not the case: Russia built up its invasion troops months before attempting the invasion, and its fishing for excuses, false-flag operations covered ceaselessly in state media (to manipulate public opinion) and efforts to misrepresent the Donbas situation are quite well documented. There also never was a formal declaration of war, and calling the march on a sovereign nations capital a "peacekeeping operation" seems a bit of a stretch to me. I honestly believe that there could have been genuine reasons for Russia to involve itself in the Ukraine-- even to send soldiers into the Donbas. But insisting that Russia shifted troops into Belarus to help or protect the people in Donetsk and Luhansk is frankly insulting (given hindsight).

dukeofdoom 2y ago

The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin. So It's not so clear cut. The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm. Just ask yourself where Zelensky came from and why he stashes his generational wealth in the states. Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them. Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources. This is just Western colonialism. Ask any Indian how fond they are of British colonialism.

myrmidon 2y ago
> The new puppet government was ethnic cleansing the local Russian populatin Yes, this is what Russian state media insinuated. If Russias utmost effort was to protect the minorities in Ukraines east, spearheading a peace-keeping effort would have made a lot of sense (even stationing army there, possibly). But this is not what happened, Russia fanned the flames in that region instead, aiding the separatists with undercover soldiers and materiel `(this is very well documented because they shot down a civilian airliner by mistake, which pissed of the dutch victims and their government to no end, investigating the whole clusterfuck in excruciating detail). > The fact that's it a puppet government is easy to confirm. Insisting on Zelensky being a non-democratic puppet government is a bit rich after Putin had his last political opponent poisoned, but ok... > Why ban elections if the Ukrainian people are still really behind them Because they are at war. > Also Ukraine is not getting helped for free. More like they've mortgage their land and resources to the likes of Blackrock and other banking interests. That will keep the future generations in indebted servitude, while they rob them of their resources. So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists? Why is Russia helping those colonialists in your opinion? Who exactly are those colonialists? Germany? UK? France?
- dukeofdoom 2y ago
  Navalny went through a trail (Russian legal process), was found guilty of corruption and died in prison of a blood clot. Please provide proof of poisoning ... Alexei Navalny's popularity within Russia was always a western media fabrication, and at best a whole lot of wishful thinking. Navalny was a fringe candidate, with about the same amount of popularity as Chris Christi, and pushed and financed be the same neocons. To what degree Russia is democratic can be disputed, but the fact is that Putin still has the backing of a vast, vast majority of Russian people. There are J6 political opponents still rotting in jail on decade long sentences over protesting a highly suspicious election. Some have been kept in solitarily confinement (torture) and some have also died in prison. So Jailing political opposition is done in the states at this point too. Trump survived two assassination attempts. Biden a less popular candidate (as proven by this election) had his justice department attempt to jail him for hundreds of years. >So Russia trying to annex the Ukraine is actually a plot by western colonialists? Russia voluntarily let Ukraine secede from the USSR under certain conditions, which they have not kept. If Ukrainians have a right to self determination. Clearly under the same principle that Russian majority that lives in eastern part of Ukraine does as well.