4 ms·

Fascinating. Is the loyalty reciprocated?

wubrr 2y ago
If the subordinates have to lie about taking time off, and intentionally accept lower pay for the benefit of their superiors - then no, it's definitely not reciprocated. I'd argue the subordinates are straight up being abused in this case.
- l33tbro 2y ago
  I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I think it is important to ground all of these old:young dynamics in culture. 'Subordinate', to me, is a very western lens and looks past the crucial point that the Japanese view power structures with far more optimism than we do. Japan clearly has its own problems, but honour and duty play a significant part in their culture and, admirably, contributes to the creation of a high-trust society.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.
    - dukeyukey 2y ago
      In this case, it's taking care of the elderly to the huge detriment of the young. And when you do that, you kinda lose the future.
      - jefbyokyie 2y ago
        Exactly. What sane grandparent would want to live at the cost of cannibalizing their grandchildren? What the sandwich generation received as kids, they need to pay that forward, not back. For one, I don't want a long life. I want to live as long as I'm not a burden. Don't want to burn down in my final years all that I will have built up for my kids and their kids. Now, they say that anime is not real life in Japan, and it's true; however it absolutely reflects (I dare say: indoctrinates viewers with) cultural elements of Japan. And this "fuck up your kids' lives so you can take care of your parents" is so characteristic. A good example (of this terrible phenomenon) is in Lovely Complex, where Nobu-chan effectively needs to abandon her sweetheart Nakao-kun, just so she can care for her grandmother, who's about to move to Hokkaido. The most heart-wrenching part is where Nakao and Nobu's grandma sit at the dining table, and Nakao is guilt-tripped into actively encouraging Nobu's grandma to travel to Hokkaido and to rob him of his beloved Nobu. Fuck all that, seriously.
        bestthrowaway 2y ago
        I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Children should not be guilted into taking care of their elders. My parents are immigrants from Southeast Asia and the culture is similar, but it's children taking care of their parents (in all facets, including financially). People ask me why I'm not rich despite making a Silicon Valley salary without living in Silicon Valley... Well, I pay two rents (mine and my parents'). Yes, I know they can move in with me to save money, yes I could just say no and leave them in the lurch, yes I could do xyz, but this is the reality. I do have the sense of duty towards them, because they took care of me and my siblings, and we wanted for nothing, despite not being an affluent family. But the tradition stops with me. I personally would never make my kids take care of me like that, and I would rather be euthanized early than have my family's last memories of me being bedridden, changing my bed pan, etc. And I'm taking all measures necessary to ensure that I leave my family a financial legacy (life insurance, retirement accounts, brokerage accounts, etc).
      - coliveira 2y ago
        You forget that every young person will become old later (if alive). That's what they consider when looking at the future.
        dukeyukey 2y ago
        Old people have had a lifetime of experience and opportunity to build themselves up for old age. Young people have had nothing, and without that opportunity, they'll be reduced to (metaphorically) cannibalising the next generation.
        coliveira 2y ago
        What a simple minded and reductionist way of thinking...
    - nimish 2y ago
      "A society grows great when the old plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Hmm I'm sure I would view that kind of social pressure as a straightjacket and I would have a very fringey and mediocre life in such a society. I'm just someone who is different and western civilization applauds individualism to some extent (except highly religious communities, army, etc). For people like me such societies are pretty cruel.
    - bearincar 2y ago
      [dead]
    - Neonlicht 2y ago
      The concept of unconditional love is unknown to many cultures. In the Netherlands children are a selfless act they are not a pension fund for their parents.
- liontwist 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - FagNigKiller 2y ago
    [dead]
- metacritic12 2y ago
  I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneously.
  - jefbyokyie 2y ago
    What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done living, I firmly believe that you can die.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a generation or two, while GP's view is the one that sustains and enables yours. Complicating things is the fact that for the fist 10+ years, children are extreme burden, so the "transgenerational exploitation" is actually done by the younger generation, even if they didn't mean it. That's the cost of bringing them into existence. It's not fair for parents to keep their children forever in their debt, but let's not pretend we don't owe anything to our parents and their generation either.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Parents chose to have children, how many (i.e. how much their attention is divided), how they'll raise them (with near absolute authority), and pick 50% of the kids' genes (via the other parent). Children chose nothing. They owe nothing. It's selfish to demand your children be personally responsible for you. Making young people miserable under the crushing weight of caring for themselves and their irresponsible elders won't inspire them to produce and share grandkids.
kortilla 2y ago
It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.
- maest 2y ago
  That's tremendously reductionistic.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    Not really. Societies all over structure taking care of old retired people in different ways. They all generally depend on the model of there being population growth though in order to keep the burden on the younger generations tolerable.
- jefbyokyie 2y ago
  Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life. Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money. Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources; young and middle-aged Japanese are entirely reasonable not to start families. I recommend reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_challenges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_chal...
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources Indeed, and in the past, this would've been offset by everyone around the parents - the old, the young, the other families and the childless aunts and uncles - all chiming in to share the burden. Social security & retiremenet is basically an attempt to give a substitute for that, for the village, but things are getting more and more pathological with each generation.

If the subordinates have to lie about taking time off, and intentionally accept lower pay for the benefit of their superiors - then no, it's definitely not reciprocated. I'd argue the subordinates are straight up being abused in this case.

l33tbro 2y ago
I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I think it is important to ground all of these old:young dynamics in culture. 'Subordinate', to me, is a very western lens and looks past the crucial point that the Japanese view power structures with far more optimism than we do. Japan clearly has its own problems, but honour and duty play a significant part in their culture and, admirably, contributes to the creation of a high-trust society.
- coliveira 2y ago
  Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.
  - dukeyukey 2y ago
    In this case, it's taking care of the elderly to the huge detriment of the young. And when you do that, you kinda lose the future.
    - jefbyokyie 2y ago
      Exactly. What sane grandparent would want to live at the cost of cannibalizing their grandchildren? What the sandwich generation received as kids, they need to pay that forward, not back. For one, I don't want a long life. I want to live as long as I'm not a burden. Don't want to burn down in my final years all that I will have built up for my kids and their kids. Now, they say that anime is not real life in Japan, and it's true; however it absolutely reflects (I dare say: indoctrinates viewers with) cultural elements of Japan. And this "fuck up your kids' lives so you can take care of your parents" is so characteristic. A good example (of this terrible phenomenon) is in Lovely Complex, where Nobu-chan effectively needs to abandon her sweetheart Nakao-kun, just so she can care for her grandmother, who's about to move to Hokkaido. The most heart-wrenching part is where Nakao and Nobu's grandma sit at the dining table, and Nakao is guilt-tripped into actively encouraging Nobu's grandma to travel to Hokkaido and to rob him of his beloved Nobu. Fuck all that, seriously.
      - bestthrowaway 2y ago
        I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Children should not be guilted into taking care of their elders. My parents are immigrants from Southeast Asia and the culture is similar, but it's children taking care of their parents (in all facets, including financially). People ask me why I'm not rich despite making a Silicon Valley salary without living in Silicon Valley... Well, I pay two rents (mine and my parents'). Yes, I know they can move in with me to save money, yes I could just say no and leave them in the lurch, yes I could do xyz, but this is the reality. I do have the sense of duty towards them, because they took care of me and my siblings, and we wanted for nothing, despite not being an affluent family. But the tradition stops with me. I personally would never make my kids take care of me like that, and I would rather be euthanized early than have my family's last memories of me being bedridden, changing my bed pan, etc. And I'm taking all measures necessary to ensure that I leave my family a financial legacy (life insurance, retirement accounts, brokerage accounts, etc).
    - coliveira 2y ago
      You forget that every young person will become old later (if alive). That's what they consider when looking at the future.
      - dukeyukey 2y ago
        Old people have had a lifetime of experience and opportunity to build themselves up for old age. Young people have had nothing, and without that opportunity, they'll be reduced to (metaphorically) cannibalising the next generation.
        coliveira 2y ago
        What a simple minded and reductionist way of thinking...
  - nimish 2y ago
    "A society grows great when the old plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Hmm I'm sure I would view that kind of social pressure as a straightjacket and I would have a very fringey and mediocre life in such a society. I'm just someone who is different and western civilization applauds individualism to some extent (except highly religious communities, army, etc). For people like me such societies are pretty cruel.
  - bearincar 2y ago
    [dead]
  - Neonlicht 2y ago
    The concept of unconditional love is unknown to many cultures. In the Netherlands children are a selfless act they are not a pension fund for their parents.
liontwist 2y ago
[flagged]
- FagNigKiller 2y ago
  [dead]
metacritic12 2y ago
I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneously.
- jefbyokyie 2y ago
  What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done living, I firmly believe that you can die.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a generation or two, while GP's view is the one that sustains and enables yours. Complicating things is the fact that for the fist 10+ years, children are extreme burden, so the "transgenerational exploitation" is actually done by the younger generation, even if they didn't mean it. That's the cost of bringing them into existence. It's not fair for parents to keep their children forever in their debt, but let's not pretend we don't owe anything to our parents and their generation either.
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      Parents chose to have children, how many (i.e. how much their attention is divided), how they'll raise them (with near absolute authority), and pick 50% of the kids' genes (via the other parent). Children chose nothing. They owe nothing. It's selfish to demand your children be personally responsible for you. Making young people miserable under the crushing weight of caring for themselves and their irresponsible elders won't inspire them to produce and share grandkids.

kortilla 2y ago

It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.

maest 2y ago
That's tremendously reductionistic.
- kortilla 2y ago
  Not really. Societies all over structure taking care of old retired people in different ways. They all generally depend on the model of there being population growth though in order to keep the burden on the younger generations tolerable.
jefbyokyie 2y ago
Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life. Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money. Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources; young and middle-aged Japanese are entirely reasonable not to start families. I recommend reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_challenges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_chal...
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources Indeed, and in the past, this would've been offset by everyone around the parents - the old, the young, the other families and the childless aunts and uncles - all chiming in to share the burden. Social security & retiremenet is basically an attempt to give a substitute for that, for the village, but things are getting more and more pathological with each generation.