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I kind of doubt this will be adopted practically in Japan. The old people get time off and leave work early in Japan by privilege and the young break themselves

I kind of doubt this will be adopted practically in Japan. The old people get time off and leave work early in Japan by privilege and the young break themselves and any rule they need to permit it. The young would even lie about taking time off to make the boss look good, even taking less pay to sell the lie. Who can have kids when you already have to change everyone's diaper.

encoderer 2y ago
Fascinating. Is the loyalty reciprocated?
- wubrr 2y ago
  If the subordinates have to lie about taking time off, and intentionally accept lower pay for the benefit of their superiors - then no, it's definitely not reciprocated. I'd argue the subordinates are straight up being abused in this case.
  - l33tbro 2y ago
    I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I think it is important to ground all of these old:young dynamics in culture. 'Subordinate', to me, is a very western lens and looks past the crucial point that the Japanese view power structures with far more optimism than we do. Japan clearly has its own problems, but honour and duty play a significant part in their culture and, admirably, contributes to the creation of a high-trust society.
    - coliveira 2y ago
      Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.
      - dukeyukey 2y ago
        In this case, it's taking care of the elderly to the huge detriment of the young. And when you do that, you kinda lose the future.
        jefbyokyie 2y ago
        Exactly. What sane grandparent would want to live at the cost of cannibalizing their grandchildren? What the sandwich generation received as kids, they need to pay that forward, not back. For one, I don't want a long life. I want to live as long as I'm not a burden. Don't want to burn down in my final years all that I will have built up for my kids and their kids. Now, they say that anime is not real life in Japan, and it's true; however it absolutely reflects (I dare say: indoctrinates viewers with) cultural elements of Japan. And this "fuck up your kids' lives so you can take care of your parents" is so characteristic. A good example (of this terrible phenomenon) is in Lovely Complex, where Nobu-chan effectively needs to abandon her sweetheart Nakao-kun, just so she can care for her grandmother, who's about to move to Hokkaido. The most heart-wrenching part is where Nakao and Nobu's grandma sit at the dining table, and Nakao is guilt-tripped into actively encouraging Nobu's grandma to travel to Hokkaido and to rob him of his beloved Nobu. Fuck all that, seriously.
        bestthrowaway 2y ago
        I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Children should not be guilted into taking care of their elders. My parents are immigrants from Southeast Asia and the culture is similar, but it's children taking care of their parents (in all facets, including financially). People ask me why I'm not rich despite making a Silicon Valley salary without living in Silicon Valley... Well, I pay two rents (mine and my parents'). Yes, I know they can move in with me to save money, yes I could just say no and leave them in the lurch, yes I could do xyz, but this is the reality. I do have the sense of duty towards them, because they took care of me and my siblings, and we wanted for nothing, despite not being an affluent family. But the tradition stops with me. I personally would never make my kids take care of me like that, and I would rather be euthanized early than have my family's last memories of me being bedridden, changing my bed pan, etc. And I'm taking all measures necessary to ensure that I leave my family a financial legacy (life insurance, retirement accounts, brokerage accounts, etc).
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      Hmm I'm sure I would view that kind of social pressure as a straightjacket and I would have a very fringey and mediocre life in such a society. I'm just someone who is different and western civilization applauds individualism to some extent (except highly religious communities, army, etc). For people like me such societies are pretty cruel.
      - bearincar 2y ago
        [dead]
      - Neonlicht 2y ago
        The concept of unconditional love is unknown to many cultures. In the Netherlands children are a selfless act they are not a pension fund for their parents.
  - liontwist 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - FagNigKiller 2y ago
      [dead]
  - metacritic12 2y ago
    I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneously.
    - jefbyokyie 2y ago
      What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done living, I firmly believe that you can die.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a generation or two, while GP's view is the one that sustains and enables yours. Complicating things is the fact that for the fist 10+ years, children are extreme burden, so the "transgenerational exploitation" is actually done by the younger generation, even if they didn't mean it. That's the cost of bringing them into existence. It's not fair for parents to keep their children forever in their debt, but let's not pretend we don't owe anything to our parents and their generation either.
        paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Parents chose to have children, how many (i.e. how much their attention is divided), how they'll raise them (with near absolute authority), and pick 50% of the kids' genes (via the other parent). Children chose nothing. They owe nothing. It's selfish to demand your children be personally responsible for you. Making young people miserable under the crushing weight of caring for themselves and their irresponsible elders won't inspire them to produce and share grandkids.
- kortilla 2y ago
  It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.
  - maest 2y ago
    That's tremendously reductionistic.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      Not really. Societies all over structure taking care of old retired people in different ways. They all generally depend on the model of there being population growth though in order to keep the burden on the younger generations tolerable.
  - jefbyokyie 2y ago
    Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life. Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money. Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources; young and middle-aged Japanese are entirely reasonable not to start families. I recommend reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_challenges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_chal...
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      > Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources Indeed, and in the past, this would've been offset by everyone around the parents - the old, the young, the other families and the childless aunts and uncles - all chiming in to share the burden. Social security & retiremenet is basically an attempt to give a substitute for that, for the village, but things are getting more and more pathological with each generation.
feyman_r 2y ago
Interestingly, a big company actually did an experiment in Japan itself: https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40 https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-say...
- chachacharge 2y ago
  I worked for this company and they are a sponsor of NPR, but thanks for the link? Was the study conducted and audited by 3rd parties? I had to print from outside the office during PTO sometimes also.
makeitdouble 2y ago
That was largely true 10 to 20 years ago and is still true in some pockets of society. The younger have been giving the middle finger to these kind of companies for a while now. Either literally, by proxy, or going elsewhere and/or quit the whole corporate culture altogether and doing "shit" jobs with more flexibility instead (they feel screwed either way, at least they'll do it on their own term) This 4 days week measure has a realistic chance IMHO, otherwise these gov job will stay the bottom of the barrel in the new generation's perception.
- Rendello 2y ago
  I have a friend, Mai (let's say), who's from Japan (and is as terrified as I am at the country's work culture). She texted her high school friend who's still there and working in an office, day-in and day-out, and Mai asked her if she's hanging out or talking to any of her old friends. The friend said "You're my friend Mai :) I only talk with you". She only sends her a text on Christmas and her birthday, that's the extent of their yearly interaction!
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    I also anecdotaly know a number of people in that bucket. I don't know for your friend, but for many it comes down to not caring that much about having "friends". They will prioritize their hobbies over basically anything, including socialization (they can still socialize inside their hobby group, but they might not be "friends" in the traditional way) I'd see it as the same line of thinking as DINK, except with a single income and no fucks given about romantic relationships. Of course the situation could be different if they were super affluent, but as they have to prioritize they choose what makes them happy regardless of social norms.
    - Rendello 2y ago
      Fair enough, I like having friends but have a hard time figuring out when to fit them into my schedule. In this case, I know my friend's friend talked about constant overtime and not having a life outside of the office. I sent Mai this video of the crazy day-in-the-life of a salaryman in Japan [1], and we both felt it was crazy, but she said "I actually think he likes it". Some people are cut out for overtime every day but I know I'd go crazy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmjXp_AYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmjXp_AYg0 --- Unrelated, but I (sort of) wish English had an obviative case. It's hard to give a story about a friend and their friend of the same gender in English without ambiguity, hence why I gave [person 1] a name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative

encoderer 2y ago

Fascinating. Is the loyalty reciprocated?

wubrr 2y ago
If the subordinates have to lie about taking time off, and intentionally accept lower pay for the benefit of their superiors - then no, it's definitely not reciprocated. I'd argue the subordinates are straight up being abused in this case.
- l33tbro 2y ago
  I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I think it is important to ground all of these old:young dynamics in culture. 'Subordinate', to me, is a very western lens and looks past the crucial point that the Japanese view power structures with far more optimism than we do. Japan clearly has its own problems, but honour and duty play a significant part in their culture and, admirably, contributes to the creation of a high-trust society.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.
    - dukeyukey 2y ago
      In this case, it's taking care of the elderly to the huge detriment of the young. And when you do that, you kinda lose the future.
      - jefbyokyie 2y ago
        Exactly. What sane grandparent would want to live at the cost of cannibalizing their grandchildren? What the sandwich generation received as kids, they need to pay that forward, not back. For one, I don't want a long life. I want to live as long as I'm not a burden. Don't want to burn down in my final years all that I will have built up for my kids and their kids. Now, they say that anime is not real life in Japan, and it's true; however it absolutely reflects (I dare say: indoctrinates viewers with) cultural elements of Japan. And this "fuck up your kids' lives so you can take care of your parents" is so characteristic. A good example (of this terrible phenomenon) is in Lovely Complex, where Nobu-chan effectively needs to abandon her sweetheart Nakao-kun, just so she can care for her grandmother, who's about to move to Hokkaido. The most heart-wrenching part is where Nakao and Nobu's grandma sit at the dining table, and Nakao is guilt-tripped into actively encouraging Nobu's grandma to travel to Hokkaido and to rob him of his beloved Nobu. Fuck all that, seriously.
        bestthrowaway 2y ago
        I agree with you, wholeheartedly. Children should not be guilted into taking care of their elders. My parents are immigrants from Southeast Asia and the culture is similar, but it's children taking care of their parents (in all facets, including financially). People ask me why I'm not rich despite making a Silicon Valley salary without living in Silicon Valley... Well, I pay two rents (mine and my parents'). Yes, I know they can move in with me to save money, yes I could just say no and leave them in the lurch, yes I could do xyz, but this is the reality. I do have the sense of duty towards them, because they took care of me and my siblings, and we wanted for nothing, despite not being an affluent family. But the tradition stops with me. I personally would never make my kids take care of me like that, and I would rather be euthanized early than have my family's last memories of me being bedridden, changing my bed pan, etc. And I'm taking all measures necessary to ensure that I leave my family a financial legacy (life insurance, retirement accounts, brokerage accounts, etc).
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Hmm I'm sure I would view that kind of social pressure as a straightjacket and I would have a very fringey and mediocre life in such a society. I'm just someone who is different and western civilization applauds individualism to some extent (except highly religious communities, army, etc). For people like me such societies are pretty cruel.
    - bearincar 2y ago
      [dead]
    - Neonlicht 2y ago
      The concept of unconditional love is unknown to many cultures. In the Netherlands children are a selfless act they are not a pension fund for their parents.
- liontwist 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - FagNigKiller 2y ago
    [dead]
- metacritic12 2y ago
  I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneously.
  - jefbyokyie 2y ago
    What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done living, I firmly believe that you can die.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a generation or two, while GP's view is the one that sustains and enables yours. Complicating things is the fact that for the fist 10+ years, children are extreme burden, so the "transgenerational exploitation" is actually done by the younger generation, even if they didn't mean it. That's the cost of bringing them into existence. It's not fair for parents to keep their children forever in their debt, but let's not pretend we don't owe anything to our parents and their generation either.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Parents chose to have children, how many (i.e. how much their attention is divided), how they'll raise them (with near absolute authority), and pick 50% of the kids' genes (via the other parent). Children chose nothing. They owe nothing. It's selfish to demand your children be personally responsible for you. Making young people miserable under the crushing weight of caring for themselves and their irresponsible elders won't inspire them to produce and share grandkids.
kortilla 2y ago
It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.
- maest 2y ago
  That's tremendously reductionistic.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    Not really. Societies all over structure taking care of old retired people in different ways. They all generally depend on the model of there being population growth though in order to keep the burden on the younger generations tolerable.
- jefbyokyie 2y ago
  Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life. Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money. Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources; young and middle-aged Japanese are entirely reasonable not to start families. I recommend reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_challenges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich_generation#Other_chal...
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources Indeed, and in the past, this would've been offset by everyone around the parents - the old, the young, the other families and the childless aunts and uncles - all chiming in to share the burden. Social security & retiremenet is basically an attempt to give a substitute for that, for the village, but things are getting more and more pathological with each generation.

feyman_r 2y ago

Interestingly, a big company actually did an experiment in Japan itself: https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-says-4-day-workweek-boosted-workers-productivity-by-40 https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/776163853/microsoft-japan-say...

chachacharge 2y ago
I worked for this company and they are a sponsor of NPR, but thanks for the link? Was the study conducted and audited by 3rd parties? I had to print from outside the office during PTO sometimes also.

makeitdouble 2y ago

That was largely true 10 to 20 years ago and is still true in some pockets of society. The younger have been giving the middle finger to these kind of companies for a while now. Either literally, by proxy, or going elsewhere and/or quit the whole corporate culture altogether and doing "shit" jobs with more flexibility instead (they feel screwed either way, at least they'll do it on their own term) This 4 days week measure has a realistic chance IMHO, otherwise these gov job will stay the bottom of the barrel in the new generation's perception.

Rendello 2y ago
I have a friend, Mai (let's say), who's from Japan (and is as terrified as I am at the country's work culture). She texted her high school friend who's still there and working in an office, day-in and day-out, and Mai asked her if she's hanging out or talking to any of her old friends. The friend said "You're my friend Mai :) I only talk with you". She only sends her a text on Christmas and her birthday, that's the extent of their yearly interaction!
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I also anecdotaly know a number of people in that bucket. I don't know for your friend, but for many it comes down to not caring that much about having "friends". They will prioritize their hobbies over basically anything, including socialization (they can still socialize inside their hobby group, but they might not be "friends" in the traditional way) I'd see it as the same line of thinking as DINK, except with a single income and no fucks given about romantic relationships. Of course the situation could be different if they were super affluent, but as they have to prioritize they choose what makes them happy regardless of social norms.
  - Rendello 2y ago
    Fair enough, I like having friends but have a hard time figuring out when to fit them into my schedule. In this case, I know my friend's friend talked about constant overtime and not having a life outside of the office. I sent Mai this video of the crazy day-in-the-life of a salaryman in Japan [1], and we both felt it was crazy, but she said "I actually think he likes it". Some people are cut out for overtime every day but I know I'd go crazy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmjXp_AYg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmjXp_AYg0 --- Unrelated, but I (sort of) wish English had an obviative case. It's hard to give a story about a friend and their friend of the same gender in English without ambiguity, hence why I gave [person 1] a name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative