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Is there really any question that Americans have reacted negatively to Israeli war tactics? I think there is also a comment from an actual Romanian somewhere in

Is there really any question that Americans have reacted negatively to Israeli war tactics? I think there is also a comment from an actual Romanian somewhere in this threat observing that their fellow citizens are legitimately frustrated with the two major parties.

lukan 2y ago
"Is there really any question that Americans have reacted negatively to Israeli war tactics?" No, but is there a question that china still might try to influence and leverage it?
- whatshisface 2y ago
  The international marketplace of ideas may pose some risk of allowing the American system of government to fufill its potential as a representative democracy, but the officials in Washington face no hazard greater than that. :-)
  - lukan 2y ago
    "The international marketplace of ideas " Market place implies transparent exchange of ideas. But if the TikTok algorithm is political biased, it is not a honest exchange of ideas anymore. (same goes for X's or FB, or whatever). But personally I am cool with not using those services.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      A newspaper's editorial columns aren't the marketplace of ideas, the sum of all newspapers is. If TikTok were as editorially controlled as a newspaper, it would still represent one venue in the marketplace. In essence, the government wants to ban foreign news sources. TikTok may have been less editorialized than Al Jazeera, but it had wider reach.
      - stonogo 2y ago
        This argument is weak. Editorials are marked as such. The board makeup is known. Tiktok is a platform wherein its impossible to know which content is organically popular and what is being artificially weighted, we have no insight into who is doing the weighting, and which pieces of content are controlled by state media. In short, you have no idea whether it is more or less editorialized than other news outlets, and that's the central issue here.
        whatshisface 2y ago
        Even if TikTok were 100% editorialized - like the most biased newspapers - it would be an affront to the principles of a free society to ban it for failing to encourage people to support the general line. That's on top of the fact that it hasn't even been demonstrated to be editorialized.
        lukan 2y ago
        I do agree in general. It is a sign of weakness for a free society. Ideally in my oppinion, intelligence services would proof the manipulation - and show it to the public. Who then decide on their own to be sceptical of TikTok content. I am against a direct government intervention. But it is still a very different situation in terms of impact compared to a single local newspaper.
        simoncion 2y ago
        > Ideally in my oppinion, intelligence services would proof the manipulation - and show it to the public. Based on the fact that FedGov is presenting evidence to the court under seal, it seems likely that intelligence services have proof (or -more likely- "proof") of manipulation, but are only showing it to the judge. Does the likely fact that the US government is refusing to provide for public inspection and discussion what they're using as evidence of alleged national-security-relevant Chinese interference in domestic affairs make you more comfortable with the veracity of their claims that the Chinese government not only has substantial control over TikTok, but that that control is so harmful to national security that it must be unilaterally terminated? Why or why not?
jncfhnb 2y ago
I’m not convinced they would have reacted this way otherwise. A lot of folks have been empowered to say “end the war in Gaza”. A lot of those folks don’t quite know what to say to “should we allow Hamas to seize control of Palestine”?
- whatshisface 2y ago
  The best opinion is the one formed with the most information. If learning something new about the facts of the case changes someone's reaction to it, it is probably for the better. If this were not the case, democracies would work best when the public was not taught to read. :-) Can we really argue that the public is too stupid to be trusted with the ability to communicate? If that is the idea we should admit, at least, that what is being considered inverts every principle of the free world.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    The best opinion is formed from complete information. More information is strictly harmful if it’s driven by one-sided bad faith distribution networks. Having a foreign government control the narratives that reach mass audiences is not at all the same as trusting the public with the ability to communicate.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      Maybe it would help if we distilled the abstract ideas ("foreign influence on the narrative ") to the specific event (current administration wanted to hide the human cost of Israeli tactics / the existence of a spoiler candidate).
      - jncfhnb 2y ago
        I think you missed some important details salient to understanding the conflict in Gaza.
        2y ago
UltraSane 2y ago
Notice the extreme generational divide in how Americans react to Israeli war tactics? I feel this is caused by younger people consuming vastly more social media in general and TikTok specifically.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  I live in a senior home converted to apartment buildings, and all the senior people (who still live in the building even after the conversion) have been shocked throughout this war, as if a person they knew flipped 180 and turned out to be nothing like you thought they were. The newer apartment renters (20s-40s typical young urban dwellers) are not surprised by anything they see on the news regarding the conflict. I think they had ways to see what the older generations had just been blind to since before this latest flare up happened.
- mohbk 2y ago
  I'd argue this is because social media is ironically enough, manipulated less than traditional mass media. Despite brigading from any side, anyone can get anything trending on social media, including videos of the aftermath of israeli air strikes, meanwhile nothing but filtered news headlines make it out of editors. A fun exercise is comparing how big news websites frame headlines when Palestinians die (passive voice) and Ukrainian / israelis are killed.
  - DecoySalamander 2y ago
    It's not any less manipulated - there are just more parties doing psychological operations and not just established players. In the case of TikTok, China gets to pick and choose which operations are free to run, and likely picks the ones that are more destabilizing to the US.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      Public opinion isn't destabilising in the US, instead it forms the basis of our system of government.

lukan 2y ago

"Is there really any question that Americans have reacted negatively to Israeli war tactics?" No, but is there a question that china still might try to influence and leverage it?

whatshisface 2y ago
The international marketplace of ideas may pose some risk of allowing the American system of government to fufill its potential as a representative democracy, but the officials in Washington face no hazard greater than that. :-)
- lukan 2y ago
  "The international marketplace of ideas " Market place implies transparent exchange of ideas. But if the TikTok algorithm is political biased, it is not a honest exchange of ideas anymore. (same goes for X's or FB, or whatever). But personally I am cool with not using those services.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    A newspaper's editorial columns aren't the marketplace of ideas, the sum of all newspapers is. If TikTok were as editorially controlled as a newspaper, it would still represent one venue in the marketplace. In essence, the government wants to ban foreign news sources. TikTok may have been less editorialized than Al Jazeera, but it had wider reach.
    - stonogo 2y ago
      This argument is weak. Editorials are marked as such. The board makeup is known. Tiktok is a platform wherein its impossible to know which content is organically popular and what is being artificially weighted, we have no insight into who is doing the weighting, and which pieces of content are controlled by state media. In short, you have no idea whether it is more or less editorialized than other news outlets, and that's the central issue here.
      - whatshisface 2y ago
        Even if TikTok were 100% editorialized - like the most biased newspapers - it would be an affront to the principles of a free society to ban it for failing to encourage people to support the general line. That's on top of the fact that it hasn't even been demonstrated to be editorialized.
        lukan 2y ago
        I do agree in general. It is a sign of weakness for a free society. Ideally in my oppinion, intelligence services would proof the manipulation - and show it to the public. Who then decide on their own to be sceptical of TikTok content. I am against a direct government intervention. But it is still a very different situation in terms of impact compared to a single local newspaper.
        simoncion 2y ago
        > Ideally in my oppinion, intelligence services would proof the manipulation - and show it to the public. Based on the fact that FedGov is presenting evidence to the court under seal, it seems likely that intelligence services have proof (or -more likely- "proof") of manipulation, but are only showing it to the judge. Does the likely fact that the US government is refusing to provide for public inspection and discussion what they're using as evidence of alleged national-security-relevant Chinese interference in domestic affairs make you more comfortable with the veracity of their claims that the Chinese government not only has substantial control over TikTok, but that that control is so harmful to national security that it must be unilaterally terminated? Why or why not?

jncfhnb 2y ago

I’m not convinced they would have reacted this way otherwise. A lot of folks have been empowered to say “end the war in Gaza”. A lot of those folks don’t quite know what to say to “should we allow Hamas to seize control of Palestine”?

whatshisface 2y ago
The best opinion is the one formed with the most information. If learning something new about the facts of the case changes someone's reaction to it, it is probably for the better. If this were not the case, democracies would work best when the public was not taught to read. :-) Can we really argue that the public is too stupid to be trusted with the ability to communicate? If that is the idea we should admit, at least, that what is being considered inverts every principle of the free world.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  The best opinion is formed from complete information. More information is strictly harmful if it’s driven by one-sided bad faith distribution networks. Having a foreign government control the narratives that reach mass audiences is not at all the same as trusting the public with the ability to communicate.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    Maybe it would help if we distilled the abstract ideas ("foreign influence on the narrative ") to the specific event (current administration wanted to hide the human cost of Israeli tactics / the existence of a spoiler candidate).
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      I think you missed some important details salient to understanding the conflict in Gaza.
      - 2y ago

UltraSane 2y ago

Notice the extreme generational divide in how Americans react to Israeli war tactics? I feel this is caused by younger people consuming vastly more social media in general and TikTok specifically.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
I live in a senior home converted to apartment buildings, and all the senior people (who still live in the building even after the conversion) have been shocked throughout this war, as if a person they knew flipped 180 and turned out to be nothing like you thought they were. The newer apartment renters (20s-40s typical young urban dwellers) are not surprised by anything they see on the news regarding the conflict. I think they had ways to see what the older generations had just been blind to since before this latest flare up happened.
mohbk 2y ago
I'd argue this is because social media is ironically enough, manipulated less than traditional mass media. Despite brigading from any side, anyone can get anything trending on social media, including videos of the aftermath of israeli air strikes, meanwhile nothing but filtered news headlines make it out of editors. A fun exercise is comparing how big news websites frame headlines when Palestinians die (passive voice) and Ukrainian / israelis are killed.
- DecoySalamander 2y ago
  It's not any less manipulated - there are just more parties doing psychological operations and not just established players. In the case of TikTok, China gets to pick and choose which operations are free to run, and likely picks the ones that are more destabilizing to the US.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    Public opinion isn't destabilising in the US, instead it forms the basis of our system of government.