4 ms·

I am reminded of the commotion over this way back in 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wi

I am reminded of the commotion over this way back in 2016: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... They said Trump won with Russia's help. I wonder, are voters so easily manipulated that some other (hostile) country can make them vote like sheep? And should people in the state administration (who are appointed, not elected) have the power to cancel valid election results because of suspected foreign interference? What if they make a mistake? Will they ever be held responsible for it?

Applejinx 2y ago
'easily' is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. As an American who maintains multiple friendships all over the political map due to significant nonpolitical shared interests, I've got more perspective on that commotion. While it's true Trump won with Russia's help both times, it took an extraordinary effort with extraordinary results, patterned after internal Russian political manipulation (so it's not like it was just made up haphazardly). It required attentive siloing of Americans into camps isolated from each others' worldviews and the concealment of what the other camp was seeing. This is not remotely 'easy manipulation', it's lengthy hard work requiring great effort and attention, toward a goal of confusing both sides against each other, and eventually removing the very concept of reality. Sounds impossible, but it works… at least to the extent of getting results, and tearing apart a country. That's why 'civil war' is constantly invoked by these forces: you can't do anything constructive this way but the goal is to spur internal conflict. That's why it's relevant that it's foreign interference: the interferer isn't hobbled by a need to survive in the resulting damaged country. They can do whatever they want, because they're doing it to an enemy.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Also part of the reason the interference is so succesful is that America ISN'T some magical wonderland and people in the US know that, so they are inherently sympathetic to any message that says something bad about the current administration. It's a lot easier to have a strong effect in a very muddled situation than say, if it was 1944 and Americans were strongly united. America is having pains. It's easier to stoke that fire than light one anew.
- indigoabstract 2y ago
  I understand that concern. Ideally, internal politics should remain internal, without outside interference. But when it gets to a point where a country's administration (the long term one, not the 4 year one) doesn't trust its citizens to make the correct and informed choice and be loyal to their own country and interests and actively tries to meddle with the results, then the name is all that's left of that democracy. Might as well start putting "People's" or "Democratic" before that country's name. Like in DPRK or PRC. At least they're being honest about it.
tim333 2y ago
Trump did win and Russia did help, at least as far as hacking the Democratic party emails. I guess overturning things depends on the laws of the countries. Obviously it didn't happen in that case.

Applejinx 2y ago

'easily' is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. As an American who maintains multiple friendships all over the political map due to significant nonpolitical shared interests, I've got more perspective on that commotion. While it's true Trump won with Russia's help both times, it took an extraordinary effort with extraordinary results, patterned after internal Russian political manipulation (so it's not like it was just made up haphazardly). It required attentive siloing of Americans into camps isolated from each others' worldviews and the concealment of what the other camp was seeing. This is not remotely 'easy manipulation', it's lengthy hard work requiring great effort and attention, toward a goal of confusing both sides against each other, and eventually removing the very concept of reality. Sounds impossible, but it works… at least to the extent of getting results, and tearing apart a country. That's why 'civil war' is constantly invoked by these forces: you can't do anything constructive this way but the goal is to spur internal conflict. That's why it's relevant that it's foreign interference: the interferer isn't hobbled by a need to survive in the resulting damaged country. They can do whatever they want, because they're doing it to an enemy.

mrguyorama 2y ago
Also part of the reason the interference is so succesful is that America ISN'T some magical wonderland and people in the US know that, so they are inherently sympathetic to any message that says something bad about the current administration. It's a lot easier to have a strong effect in a very muddled situation than say, if it was 1944 and Americans were strongly united. America is having pains. It's easier to stoke that fire than light one anew.
indigoabstract 2y ago
I understand that concern. Ideally, internal politics should remain internal, without outside interference. But when it gets to a point where a country's administration (the long term one, not the 4 year one) doesn't trust its citizens to make the correct and informed choice and be loyal to their own country and interests and actively tries to meddle with the results, then the name is all that's left of that democracy. Might as well start putting "People's" or "Democratic" before that country's name. Like in DPRK or PRC. At least they're being honest about it.

tim333 2y ago

Trump did win and Russia did help, at least as far as hacking the Democratic party emails. I guess overturning things depends on the laws of the countries. Obviously it didn't happen in that case.