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I'm not denying the West has been quite bad to the Africans, but China isn't any better. They're in it for themselves. They get corrupt regimes to take loans (f

by tgv 2y ago

I'm not denying the West has been quite bad to the Africans, but China isn't any better. They're in it for themselves. They get corrupt regimes to take loans (from China) for work (produced by China), deliver shoddy and useless results, let the local elite get their bribes, and then hold the country ransom over those loans, and demand payment e.g. in natural resources and political influence. All funded by the West's dependence on Aliexpress.

woooooo 2y ago
All of that self-dealing is still in the context of development projects, rather than military and paramilitary interference. Would you rather have imperfect, corrupt development projects or the CIA fucking your shit up and definitely not building any dams?
- immibis 2y ago
  What happens if you stop following the contracts? I bet military stuff.
churchill 2y ago
Shoddy and useless according to who? I take it you haven't been to any of these African countries, where a Chinese-built dam generates the electricity millions use, or where a handful of bridges open up vast stretches of the country for trade. Speaking of loans, most of Africa (and the developing world's) loans originate from Western lenders. They never cared about the borrower's ability to pay back or the fact that a huge chunk of the capital would be stolen. They'd simply demand payment anyway. So, how is China responsible for loaning money on the same terms? In which specific cases has China demanded payment or strong-armed governments into making concessions for loans? Just one example, please. And don't mention the Hambantota port since you'll lose any credibility left. If any African country lets their leaders steal dev. capital, it's not China's fault, and it's not different from what has happened with Western loans. In fact, with Western loans, there's an understanding that it will not get to the people, but is seen as a payoff for the puppet leaders to stay loyal. China builds usable infrastructure that can be used for decades, and you can't argue against infrastructure.
- jtbayly 2y ago
  I’ve been to Ethiopia and seen Chinese highway projects that were obviously unusable (caving in) before they were even open to traffic.
  - churchill 2y ago
    Ethiopia spans over 1 million KM2 and has over 144,000 Km of roads. How much of the country did you cover to determine this is a general trend? I can walk into large swathes of America or Europe and pick out badly damaged roads. So...
    - jtbayly 2y ago
      We drove from Addis to Arba Minch and back, which is about 900km total. We also drove from Gondar to Bahir Dar and… lots of other driving. But the main point is what you ignored. Have you ever seen miles of brand new highways falling apart before a single vehicle has driven on them? Spread over hundreds of kilometers, not a one-off mistake. Furthermore, the only reason I know it was a Chinese-built road is because our guide was explaining the differences (pro and con) between the Chinese (cheap, fall apart, but built quickly) vs Ethiopian (decent quality, but incredibly slow progress and never completed) road projects.
deadbolt 2y ago
Judging by their actions vs the west’s actions, China is far better. Be serious.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
> I'm not denying the West has been quite bad to the Africans, but China isn't any better. If the western countries want to clean up their acts and offer something better than what China is doing, I am sure the doors of the African governments are open. The problem is that the West has abandoned Africa, destabilized the region and then complains that Africa is looking for new partners. What is the West doing to make amends? What are they offering? If those questions cannot be answered then it's no wonder that China is making gains in Africa. > They're in it for themselves. As opposed to the West who does things out of the goodwill of it's heart, I am sure. Do we live in the same world?

by tgv 2y ago

woooooo 2y ago

All of that self-dealing is still in the context of development projects, rather than military and paramilitary interference. Would you rather have imperfect, corrupt development projects or the CIA fucking your shit up and definitely not building any dams?

immibis 2y ago
What happens if you stop following the contracts? I bet military stuff.

churchill 2y ago

Shoddy and useless according to who? I take it you haven't been to any of these African countries, where a Chinese-built dam generates the electricity millions use, or where a handful of bridges open up vast stretches of the country for trade. Speaking of loans, most of Africa (and the developing world's) loans originate from Western lenders. They never cared about the borrower's ability to pay back or the fact that a huge chunk of the capital would be stolen. They'd simply demand payment anyway. So, how is China responsible for loaning money on the same terms? In which specific cases has China demanded payment or strong-armed governments into making concessions for loans? Just one example, please. And don't mention the Hambantota port since you'll lose any credibility left. If any African country lets their leaders steal dev. capital, it's not China's fault, and it's not different from what has happened with Western loans. In fact, with Western loans, there's an understanding that it will not get to the people, but is seen as a payoff for the puppet leaders to stay loyal. China builds usable infrastructure that can be used for decades, and you can't argue against infrastructure.

jtbayly 2y ago
I’ve been to Ethiopia and seen Chinese highway projects that were obviously unusable (caving in) before they were even open to traffic.
- churchill 2y ago
  Ethiopia spans over 1 million KM2 and has over 144,000 Km of roads. How much of the country did you cover to determine this is a general trend? I can walk into large swathes of America or Europe and pick out badly damaged roads. So...
  - jtbayly 2y ago
    We drove from Addis to Arba Minch and back, which is about 900km total. We also drove from Gondar to Bahir Dar and… lots of other driving. But the main point is what you ignored. Have you ever seen miles of brand new highways falling apart before a single vehicle has driven on them? Spread over hundreds of kilometers, not a one-off mistake. Furthermore, the only reason I know it was a Chinese-built road is because our guide was explaining the differences (pro and con) between the Chinese (cheap, fall apart, but built quickly) vs Ethiopian (decent quality, but incredibly slow progress and never completed) road projects.

deadbolt 2y ago

Judging by their actions vs the west’s actions, China is far better. Be serious.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rdm_blackhole 2y ago

> I'm not denying the West has been quite bad to the Africans, but China isn't any better. If the western countries want to clean up their acts and offer something better than what China is doing, I am sure the doors of the African governments are open. The problem is that the West has abandoned Africa, destabilized the region and then complains that Africa is looking for new partners. What is the West doing to make amends? What are they offering? If those questions cannot be answered then it's no wonder that China is making gains in Africa. > They're in it for themselves. As opposed to the West who does things out of the goodwill of it's heart, I am sure. Do we live in the same world?