2 ms·

I would think that given the chargers are so expensive, they'd want to make them easy to pay to use. I have a PHEV, so using a charger out and about is silly,

by toast0 2y ago

I would think that given the chargers are so expensive, they'd want to make them easy to pay to use. I have a PHEV, so using a charger out and about is silly, but I've only managed to use one pay charger, and it was a lot harder than a gas pump. Even the free ones are hard to use. With the PHEV, the charged amounts are rather low, so I understand the desire to push stored value accounts, but really there should have been colaboration and portability, and at least chargers should have clear information on how to make them start. Go to some website and here's my name on the website. I've seen some that do, but many that don't. Gas pumps aren't always easy either. I've had several cars where you have to hold it right or the pump stops, but I've never had much trouble giving them money. Also had fun when VW sent out anti-misfueling inserts for my TDI and I got to learn which diesel pumps had unleaded gasoline sized nozzles and which had leaded gasoline sized nozzles; before the insert, the car would take either, after only the leaded fuel size.

MrHamburger 2y ago
Charging via application brings unnecessary friction and severely degrades UX. Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place... I can imagine a simple solution - take a cable, connect it to the car and start changing by tapping a contactless credit card reader next to your cable. But I never saw simple solutions, seems like every provider wants to torture its customers with half assed applications.
- kraftman 2y ago
  You can do this in france. Tap once to open the hatch for the port, tap when you're done to pay for what you've used.
- ggreer 2y ago
  You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-charge-universal-protocol-sae-pki-roaming https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.
    - ggreer 2y ago
      Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1] The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the TLS requirement, which would improve reliability and time to start charging. But signed metering receipts are broken in the existing standard, so that needs to be fixed before the TLS requirement can be removed. 1. See page 3 of https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283 https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283
      - cyberax 2y ago
        Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission: > Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own private key (presumably in some hardware-hardened storage), and the charging network can just associate the payment details with the public key of the car. The provider can use the receipts as a proof that the car has indeed used the charging equipment. And the receipts are sent periodically during the charging process, so the charger can terminate the session if there's a discrepancy between the station's and the car's accounting. Nice and neat. Edit: and this also can easily work offline. The networks can just sync the list of approved public keys to chargers with the corresponding credit balances. It'll require account setup with each network, but if you have to do it once, it's not _too_ bad.
        2y ago

by toast0 2y ago

MrHamburger 2y ago

Charging via application brings unnecessary friction and severely degrades UX. Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place... I can imagine a simple solution - take a cable, connect it to the car and start changing by tapping a contactless credit card reader next to your cable. But I never saw simple solutions, seems like every provider wants to torture its customers with half assed applications.

kraftman 2y ago
You can do this in france. Tap once to open the hatch for the port, tap when you're done to pay for what you've used.
ggreer 2y ago
You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-charge-universal-protocol-sae-pki-roaming https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...
- cyberax 2y ago
  Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.
  - ggreer 2y ago
    Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1] The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the TLS requirement, which would improve reliability and time to start charging. But signed metering receipts are broken in the existing standard, so that needs to be fixed before the TLS requirement can be removed. 1. See page 3 of https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283 https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission: > Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own private key (presumably in some hardware-hardened storage), and the charging network can just associate the payment details with the public key of the car. The provider can use the receipts as a proof that the car has indeed used the charging equipment. And the receipts are sent periodically during the charging process, so the charger can terminate the session if there's a discrepancy between the station's and the car's accounting. Nice and neat. Edit: and this also can easily work offline. The networks can just sync the list of approved public keys to chargers with the corresponding credit balances. It'll require account setup with each network, but if you have to do it once, it's not _too_ bad.
      - 2y ago