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I think it's just a mater of time before TikTok starts seeing bans (or threats of bans) all over in the west. Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_

I think it's just a mater of time before TikTok starts seeing bans (or threats of bans) all over in the west. Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_ national threat, due to the disinformation risk. Just look at the Romanian election: A couple of hours ago they annulled the first election round, after a coordinated Russian campaign managed to propel a rather unknown pro-Russian candidate to the top, where they used platforms like TikTok to influence voters. Not that platforms like Facebook, Snap, etc. are much better, but this comes down to having some control.

nextworddev 2y ago
Even if the app got banned abruptly today, the damage has already been done in the sense that it leaked a lot of training data and PII data to China
- swatcoder 2y ago
  > the damage has already been done in the sense that it leaked a lot of training data and PII data to China That's not nearly the damage that people are organizing against. It's hard to imagine China really gains much simply be holding some trove of old details about some subset of US consumers, no matter how large. Vanishingly few users are individually interesting from halfway around the world, and the aggregate data grows stale quickly. The pressing concerns are in them being able to (a) advance their global political agenda by dynamically manipulating what people see and how its presented to them in a way that almost nobody can monitor, and (b) intercept ostensibly private messaging between select users. From the national security perspective of a foreign government, both of these are huge vulnerabilities in a hot or even mildly warm conflict with China as most of the globe seems to be anticipating. And the fact that pushing back against these strategic threats raises ideological conflicts with Western celebration of free speech and free trade -- making it hard for the government to do anything about the threats and stoking internal conflict when they try -- is gravy on top of it.
  - inahga 2y ago
    > The pressing concerns are in them being able to (a) advance their global political agenda by dynamically manipulating what people see and how its presented to them in a way that almost nobody can monitor, and (b) intercept ostensibly private messaging between select users. It's interesting that these are only actionable threats when they apply to [insert foreign boogeyman here]. That is, there's been lots of lip service paid about misinformation and privacy violations on/by U.S. companies. But it feels like the only meaningful action is being taken when it's some hypothetical foreign adversary. The further away they are, the more insidious. I've always felt the most tangible threat is in my backyard, instead of on the other side of the planet.
    - swatcoder 2y ago
      To citizens and cultural health, yes, the large domestic companies are a much greater threat. There are also many more impediments (by way of law, sentiment, and corruption) to doing anything about it. But to the US government (and its codependent allies), losing grip of the influence the US secured over the Pacific rim of Asia during to the 20th century and yielding it to China is an embarrassment at best and a major strategic loss at worst, and sets the stage for some kind of active contest of power which would be really costly and painful. Taking measures that prepare for that, under the lax purview of international law and diplomacy, is simply easier to do.
      - inahga 2y ago
        > But to the US government (and its codependent allies), losing grip of the influence the US secured over the Pacific rim of Asia during to the 20th century and yielding it to China is an embarrassment at best and a major strategic loss at worst, and sets the stage for some kind of active contest of power which would be really costly and painful. Do you have more sources/readings on this? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just the first rationale I've heard that doesn't boil down to vague innuendos about manipulation and national security that are equally applicable to US companies.
        2y ago
- kelnos 2y ago
  I'm not too concerned about that part of the damage. The big threat is that China can tell TikTok to promote particular views and political thought to American users. If TikTok is banned, that threat goes away. Sure, they've already gathered data to use in running influence campaigns on other platforms, but the US-run platforms at least try here and there to stamp out bot accounts and state-run account rings. (Well, I assume Musk is ok with them on Twitter now.)
zht 2y ago
I think that's fine and great. We should ban TikTok if that's what we decide but what about Instagram and X?
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  As much as there are legitimate reasons to go after TikTok, I can't help but feel it's not a coincidence that it gets singled out for legislation because it's the only one owned by China. And yes, that ownership is problematic but I would argue that the others including those you've listed here are equally problematic for the safety of users. So to answer your question: they should be too, but they likely won't, because the force behind this isn't a desire to protect users from disinformation, the desire is to protect western companies from scary Asian competition. Same reason behind us constantly propping up Detroit. Protecting people from disinformation is just an excuse.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    > I can't help but feel it's not a coincidence that it gets singled out for legislation because it's the only one owned by China. Of course it's not a coincidence. It's not even a hidden, implicit unspoken motive, it's openly explained as the reason behind the concern! TFA explains this clearly, numerous times.
- fragmede 2y ago
  You'd have to ask Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk about their agenda for America, and for Americans.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  TikTok isn’t getting banned. PRC control of TikTok is getting banned. TikTok can survive by selling to a company outside of the US.
- protimewaster 2y ago
  I've never understood this part of it. There's a disinformation problem on all of these platforms, so why not just kill all of them? The only argument I've seen is basically that it's better for the West to be the ones manipulating people in the West vs. having people in the East manipulating people in the West. And that just doesn't feel like a good argument.
russli1993 2y ago
[flagged]
- whatshisface 2y ago
  Nothing throws the national security argument out the window quite like the fact that major American companies still hold internal meetings on Zoom, also a Chinese company. The only difference is that Zoom hasn't been used by Americans to oppose any of this administration's foreign policies.
  - JoeAltmaier 2y ago
    It's an American company, headquartered in San Jose, and the CEO is American.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      If you account for TikTok's Project Texas, Zoom's Chinese background could be deeper. https://www.telecoms.com/security/zoom-security-flaws-and-chinese-links-make-us-authorities-nervous https://www.telecoms.com/security/zoom-security-flaws-and-ch...
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    I don’t know about major American companies using Zoom. I know that the USG uses Zoom for Government https://zoomgov.com/ https://zoomgov.com/
farseer 2y ago
>>I think it's just a mater of time before TikTok starts seeing bans (or threats of bans) all over in the west. Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_ national threat, due to the disinformation risk. Aah I see the ruling elite in the West can't actually handle freedom of speech. The court really should unseal the classified part where they accuse TikTok of towing Chinese/PRC line. Then lets have a referendum to decide its fate or at least Congress to pass a law banning it.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > or at least Congress to pass a law banning it. They did that already.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> due to the disinformation risk. If this were really the problem, TikTok wouldn't be singled-out. This is american frustration with the sympathy to Palestine: https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senato...
ribosometronome 2y ago
>due to the disinformation risk. >Just look at the Romanian election: A couple of hours ago they annulled the first election round, after a coordinated Russian campaign managed to propel a rather unknown pro-Russian candidate to the top, where they used platforms like TikTok to influence voters. What you've described so far isn't disinformation but something more like illegal campaigning. This and disinformation both happen on platforms owned by the countries they're effecting (Facebook in 2016 with Trump). US shareholders benefiting doesn't really stop it.
qingcharles 2y ago
Will I still be allowed to use Douyin? Can we all just sign up there instead? https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
> Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_ national threat, due to the disinformation risk. You mean disinformation that the West does not control. If i want to hear disinformation, I don't need TikTok. I can just watch the public TV channels that are just parroting whatever the government says. > Just look at the Romanian election: A couple of hours ago they annulled the first election round, after a coordinated Russian campaign managed to propel a rather unknown pro-Russian candidate to the top, where they used platforms like TikTok to influence voters. Yes, these people are so brain dead that a few videos on TikTok changed their minds. It absolutely not because the governments of the EU have stopped listening to their people. No, it's the Chinese and the Russians.

nextworddev 2y ago

Even if the app got banned abruptly today, the damage has already been done in the sense that it leaked a lot of training data and PII data to China

swatcoder 2y ago
> the damage has already been done in the sense that it leaked a lot of training data and PII data to China That's not nearly the damage that people are organizing against. It's hard to imagine China really gains much simply be holding some trove of old details about some subset of US consumers, no matter how large. Vanishingly few users are individually interesting from halfway around the world, and the aggregate data grows stale quickly. The pressing concerns are in them being able to (a) advance their global political agenda by dynamically manipulating what people see and how its presented to them in a way that almost nobody can monitor, and (b) intercept ostensibly private messaging between select users. From the national security perspective of a foreign government, both of these are huge vulnerabilities in a hot or even mildly warm conflict with China as most of the globe seems to be anticipating. And the fact that pushing back against these strategic threats raises ideological conflicts with Western celebration of free speech and free trade -- making it hard for the government to do anything about the threats and stoking internal conflict when they try -- is gravy on top of it.
- inahga 2y ago
  > The pressing concerns are in them being able to (a) advance their global political agenda by dynamically manipulating what people see and how its presented to them in a way that almost nobody can monitor, and (b) intercept ostensibly private messaging between select users. It's interesting that these are only actionable threats when they apply to [insert foreign boogeyman here]. That is, there's been lots of lip service paid about misinformation and privacy violations on/by U.S. companies. But it feels like the only meaningful action is being taken when it's some hypothetical foreign adversary. The further away they are, the more insidious. I've always felt the most tangible threat is in my backyard, instead of on the other side of the planet.
  - swatcoder 2y ago
    To citizens and cultural health, yes, the large domestic companies are a much greater threat. There are also many more impediments (by way of law, sentiment, and corruption) to doing anything about it. But to the US government (and its codependent allies), losing grip of the influence the US secured over the Pacific rim of Asia during to the 20th century and yielding it to China is an embarrassment at best and a major strategic loss at worst, and sets the stage for some kind of active contest of power which would be really costly and painful. Taking measures that prepare for that, under the lax purview of international law and diplomacy, is simply easier to do.
    - inahga 2y ago
      > But to the US government (and its codependent allies), losing grip of the influence the US secured over the Pacific rim of Asia during to the 20th century and yielding it to China is an embarrassment at best and a major strategic loss at worst, and sets the stage for some kind of active contest of power which would be really costly and painful. Do you have more sources/readings on this? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just the first rationale I've heard that doesn't boil down to vague innuendos about manipulation and national security that are equally applicable to US companies.
      - 2y ago
kelnos 2y ago
I'm not too concerned about that part of the damage. The big threat is that China can tell TikTok to promote particular views and political thought to American users. If TikTok is banned, that threat goes away. Sure, they've already gathered data to use in running influence campaigns on other platforms, but the US-run platforms at least try here and there to stamp out bot accounts and state-run account rings. (Well, I assume Musk is ok with them on Twitter now.)

zht 2y ago

I think that's fine and great. We should ban TikTok if that's what we decide but what about Instagram and X?

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
As much as there are legitimate reasons to go after TikTok, I can't help but feel it's not a coincidence that it gets singled out for legislation because it's the only one owned by China. And yes, that ownership is problematic but I would argue that the others including those you've listed here are equally problematic for the safety of users. So to answer your question: they should be too, but they likely won't, because the force behind this isn't a desire to protect users from disinformation, the desire is to protect western companies from scary Asian competition. Same reason behind us constantly propping up Detroit. Protecting people from disinformation is just an excuse.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  > I can't help but feel it's not a coincidence that it gets singled out for legislation because it's the only one owned by China. Of course it's not a coincidence. It's not even a hidden, implicit unspoken motive, it's openly explained as the reason behind the concern! TFA explains this clearly, numerous times.
fragmede 2y ago
You'd have to ask Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk about their agenda for America, and for Americans.
cscurmudgeon 2y ago
TikTok isn’t getting banned. PRC control of TikTok is getting banned. TikTok can survive by selling to a company outside of the US.
protimewaster 2y ago
I've never understood this part of it. There's a disinformation problem on all of these platforms, so why not just kill all of them? The only argument I've seen is basically that it's better for the West to be the ones manipulating people in the West vs. having people in the East manipulating people in the West. And that just doesn't feel like a good argument.

russli1993 2y ago

[flagged]

whatshisface 2y ago
Nothing throws the national security argument out the window quite like the fact that major American companies still hold internal meetings on Zoom, also a Chinese company. The only difference is that Zoom hasn't been used by Americans to oppose any of this administration's foreign policies.
- JoeAltmaier 2y ago
  It's an American company, headquartered in San Jose, and the CEO is American.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    If you account for TikTok's Project Texas, Zoom's Chinese background could be deeper. https://www.telecoms.com/security/zoom-security-flaws-and-chinese-links-make-us-authorities-nervous https://www.telecoms.com/security/zoom-security-flaws-and-ch...
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  I don’t know about major American companies using Zoom. I know that the USG uses Zoom for Government https://zoomgov.com/ https://zoomgov.com/

farseer 2y ago

>>I think it's just a mater of time before TikTok starts seeing bans (or threats of bans) all over in the west. Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_ national threat, due to the disinformation risk. Aah I see the ruling elite in the West can't actually handle freedom of speech. The court really should unseal the classified part where they accuse TikTok of towing Chinese/PRC line. Then lets have a referendum to decide its fate or at least Congress to pass a law banning it.

kelnos 2y ago
> or at least Congress to pass a law banning it. They did that already.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago

> due to the disinformation risk. If this were really the problem, TikTok wouldn't be singled-out. This is american frustration with the sympathy to Palestine: https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senato...

ribosometronome 2y ago

>due to the disinformation risk. >Just look at the Romanian election: A couple of hours ago they annulled the first election round, after a coordinated Russian campaign managed to propel a rather unknown pro-Russian candidate to the top, where they used platforms like TikTok to influence voters. What you've described so far isn't disinformation but something more like illegal campaigning. This and disinformation both happen on platforms owned by the countries they're effecting (Facebook in 2016 with Trump). US shareholders benefiting doesn't really stop it.

qingcharles 2y ago

Will I still be allowed to use Douyin? Can we all just sign up there instead? https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/

rdm_blackhole 2y ago

> Countries are starting to view it as a _serious_ national threat, due to the disinformation risk. You mean disinformation that the West does not control. If i want to hear disinformation, I don't need TikTok. I can just watch the public TV channels that are just parroting whatever the government says. > Just look at the Romanian election: A couple of hours ago they annulled the first election round, after a coordinated Russian campaign managed to propel a rather unknown pro-Russian candidate to the top, where they used platforms like TikTok to influence voters. Yes, these people are so brain dead that a few videos on TikTok changed their minds. It absolutely not because the governments of the EU have stopped listening to their people. No, it's the Chinese and the Russians.