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Can you please provide a source for the 10s of thousands claim? I find it extremely hard to believe, considering the way the war was persecuted. The US did not

Can you please provide a source for the 10s of thousands claim? I find it extremely hard to believe, considering the way the war was persecuted. The US did not indiscriminately shell cities with cluster munitions [1], and Iraqi cities are less dense and smaller than commie block filled Ukrainian ones. [1]: Russia routinely fires cluster munitions into densely populated cities, eg https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-60941459 https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-60941459

_1tem 2y ago
> The US did not indiscriminately shell cities with cluster munitions [1] Like I said, I heard first hand from a US veteran who served there in Iraq and was with me in Ukraine. He said Iraq was "much worse" in terms of civilian casualties in his estimation. Almost all statistical estimates you can find online also seem to confirm this, the civilian death toll was much worse in Iraq.
- dgroshev 2y ago
  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and hearsay and unnamed "statistical estimates" are hardly extraordinary. The claim is definitely extraordinary since both wars are extensively documented, and we just know (like, we have verifiable videos) that Russia has much, much less regard for civilian casualties, employs much less precise fires, and Ukraine is more populous and dense than Iraq. Besides, the numbers I could find are the other way around. This study [1] estimates 3,750 civilian deaths in Iraq, and this UN report [2] says 10,582 recorded civilian deaths (that is, it's definitely an undercount, unlike the estimation in Iraq). [1]: https://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html#3.3.%20Total%20Iraqi%20noncombatant%20death https://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html#3.3.%20Total%20Iraqi%2... [2]: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/two-year-update-protection-civilians-impact-hostilities-civilians-24.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/two-year-u...

_1tem 2y ago

> The US did not indiscriminately shell cities with cluster munitions [1] Like I said, I heard first hand from a US veteran who served there in Iraq and was with me in Ukraine. He said Iraq was "much worse" in terms of civilian casualties in his estimation. Almost all statistical estimates you can find online also seem to confirm this, the civilian death toll was much worse in Iraq.

dgroshev 2y ago
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and hearsay and unnamed "statistical estimates" are hardly extraordinary. The claim is definitely extraordinary since both wars are extensively documented, and we just know (like, we have verifiable videos) that Russia has much, much less regard for civilian casualties, employs much less precise fires, and Ukraine is more populous and dense than Iraq. Besides, the numbers I could find are the other way around. This study [1] estimates 3,750 civilian deaths in Iraq, and this UN report [2] says 10,582 recorded civilian deaths (that is, it's definitely an undercount, unlike the estimation in Iraq). [1]: https://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html#3.3.%20Total%20Iraqi%20noncombatant%20death https://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html#3.3.%20Total%20Iraqi%2... [2]: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/two-year-update-protection-civilians-impact-hostilities-civilians-24.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/two-year-u...