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The thing is, Ukraine does not want to do the same as Russia does. For one, it would be a war crime on its own, but especially, they don't want to give Putin th

The thing is, Ukraine does not want to do the same as Russia does. For one, it would be a war crime on its own, but especially, they don't want to give Putin the propaganda points "the evil UA Nxzis bombed our power plants!!!" that the 5th column worldwide would parrot while conveniently ignoring that Russia did that shit for two years.

bamboozled 2y ago
True, they have the information game stitched up tight. But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok. I certainly wouldn't cry over some Russians in Moscow feeling the impact of their own war. But unfortunately, Russia's trolls would instantly spin even an immediate reaction to the bombing of an UA power plant in a negative way.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  One big PR issue is that Ukraine and the West collectively forgot how deterrence works. Russia arguably never really learned.* Preemptive formulation and announcement: "If you X, we will escalate in Y way. If you do not X, then we will not." Instead, there's a hodgepodge of reactive escalation, which is far less effective. The point is to bargain your willingness to escalate into a self-limitation on your opponent's part. F.ex. this war might never have happened if NATO had said, before the post-Crimea invasion, that if Russia further invades territorial Ukraine then it would supply massive amounts of arms to Ukraine. * Russia, on the other hand, apparently never figured out that announcing everything as a red line and constantly making nuclear threats makes such announcements useless. But it seems like authoritarian regimes often have trouble interacting with freer information spaces.
  - bamboozled 2y ago
    agree, should’ve gave them the storm shadow and Taurus from day one.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      No. The UK and Germany should have said something like "If you hit another Ukrainian powerplant, then we will give them Storm Shadow and Taurus." The entire value of deterrence is to deter... not to respond.
      - ashoeafoot 2y ago
        But minsk should have deterred
        ethbr1 2y ago
        There was no clear "... and then" to Minsk, afaik.
        ashoeafoot 2y ago
        There was, if one of the partners violates the agreement , he is at war with the others.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Where do you see that in the text? https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-results-of-consultations-of-the-trilateral-contact-group-minsk-05092014 https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-r...
        aguaviva 2y ago
        But Minsk was dead for several years already even before the FSO. Nonetheless it seems clear now that the West could have come up with a greatly more coherent escalation strategy that it seems to have sleepwalked into.
holoduke 2y ago
The dirty games Ukraine is performing are exactly the same as Russia is doing. Both countries are corrupt in an extreme fashion. Just check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. Warcrimes are everywhere there.
- Tade0 2y ago
  Huge difference in levels of corruption between the two countries. For one, Ukraine ousted Poroshenko after just one term, because he didn't deliver. Meanwhile Russia has been stuck in a cult of personality leadership since the beginning of the 21st century.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Just check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. No, it's just very bad policy. Taken by a government in a very desperate situation. The fact that you cite this as your primary example suggests that you aren't quite sure what "corruption" actually is.
- realusername 2y ago
  Ukraine has no alternative to mass conscription, if there's one, I'm happy to hear about it. Russia has one alternative to mass conscription though, stopping the war.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    If Ukraine had any missiles, tipped with nuclear warheads, aimed at Moscow, the situation might be different.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      And if my mom had balls she would be my dad, but that's not the case. IFs of the past don't change the present situation.
      - 2y ago

bamboozled 2y ago

True, they have the information game stitched up tight. But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok.

mschuster91 2y ago
> But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok. I certainly wouldn't cry over some Russians in Moscow feeling the impact of their own war. But unfortunately, Russia's trolls would instantly spin even an immediate reaction to the bombing of an UA power plant in a negative way.
ethbr1 2y ago
One big PR issue is that Ukraine and the West collectively forgot how deterrence works. Russia arguably never really learned.* Preemptive formulation and announcement: "If you X, we will escalate in Y way. If you do not X, then we will not." Instead, there's a hodgepodge of reactive escalation, which is far less effective. The point is to bargain your willingness to escalate into a self-limitation on your opponent's part. F.ex. this war might never have happened if NATO had said, before the post-Crimea invasion, that if Russia further invades territorial Ukraine then it would supply massive amounts of arms to Ukraine. * Russia, on the other hand, apparently never figured out that announcing everything as a red line and constantly making nuclear threats makes such announcements useless. But it seems like authoritarian regimes often have trouble interacting with freer information spaces.
- bamboozled 2y ago
  agree, should’ve gave them the storm shadow and Taurus from day one.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    No. The UK and Germany should have said something like "If you hit another Ukrainian powerplant, then we will give them Storm Shadow and Taurus." The entire value of deterrence is to deter... not to respond.
    - ashoeafoot 2y ago
      But minsk should have deterred
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        There was no clear "... and then" to Minsk, afaik.
        ashoeafoot 2y ago
        There was, if one of the partners violates the agreement , he is at war with the others.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Where do you see that in the text? https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-results-of-consultations-of-the-trilateral-contact-group-minsk-05092014 https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-r...
        aguaviva 2y ago
        But Minsk was dead for several years already even before the FSO. Nonetheless it seems clear now that the West could have come up with a greatly more coherent escalation strategy that it seems to have sleepwalked into.

holoduke 2y ago

The dirty games Ukraine is performing are exactly the same as Russia is doing. Both countries are corrupt in an extreme fashion. Just check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. Warcrimes are everywhere there.

Tade0 2y ago
Huge difference in levels of corruption between the two countries. For one, Ukraine ousted Poroshenko after just one term, because he didn't deliver. Meanwhile Russia has been stuck in a cult of personality leadership since the beginning of the 21st century.
aguaviva 2y ago
Just check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. No, it's just very bad policy. Taken by a government in a very desperate situation. The fact that you cite this as your primary example suggests that you aren't quite sure what "corruption" actually is.
realusername 2y ago
Ukraine has no alternative to mass conscription, if there's one, I'm happy to hear about it. Russia has one alternative to mass conscription though, stopping the war.
- fragmede 2y ago
  If Ukraine had any missiles, tipped with nuclear warheads, aimed at Moscow, the situation might be different.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    And if my mom had balls she would be my dad, but that's not the case. IFs of the past don't change the present situation.
    - 2y ago