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> Also, part of the purpose is to create dilemmas for an air defense with limited resources - save the ammo factory or the children's hospital. And how it woul

> Also, part of the purpose is to create dilemmas for an air defense with limited resources - save the ammo factory or the children's hospital. And how it would happen? Putin calls an AA site and tells them "tehre is two missiles your way - one for ammo factory and other for the children's hospital - it's your choice what to defend"?

gpderetta 2y ago
Of course not. If everything is a legitimate target the defender has to decide whether to expend limited AA to protect civilian or strategic targets. edit: the value of cheap Iranian drones is specifically that they potentially tie up expensive AA.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > If everything is a legitimate target the defender has to decide whether to expend limited AA to protect civilian or strategic targets. And this is precisely why targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime, as is hiding/embedding military infrastructure in or below civilian infrastructure.
  - brianwawok 2y ago
    Well better call the war crime police to send offenders to war crime jail.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      There will be quite the aftermath in the Israel/Palestine conflict for that. No matter what, the ICC investigation is here to stay - and both sides will have to face justice. For Russia/Ukraine I'm less certain that anything will come around because even if Russia gets driven out of Ukraine in its entirety, there is zero chance any Russian will be held accountable by anyone on the world stage.
      - mdp2021 2y ago
        > held accountable Failure to "hold accountable" makes the failing part accountable.
      - DecoySalamander 2y ago
        We can hope that Russian economy will be driven to collapse under the weight of military expenditure. Then we might see their elites sacrificing some talking heads to appease US and get sanctions lifted.
  - justsomehnguy 2y ago
    > why targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime Remind me, who was tried for this? >> NATO planes have attacked bridges, oil refineries and other targets in raids that have affected civilians. But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. The alliance has repeatedly insisted its fight is with President Slobodan Milosevic, not with the Yugoslav people. >> "The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to." >> "We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said. While NATO sought to downplay the effect of the strikes on civilians, the raids remain politically sensitive. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/050499kosovo-nato.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/eu...
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Remind me, who was tried for this? I agree that the US / NATO has bent and crossed international rules (way) too much in the past and without consequences - the US didn't sign the ICC accords for a reason.
    - wbl 2y ago
      Wars run on electricity and communications. Bridges and refineries are literally how soldiers move across the battlefield.
    - ashoeafoot 2y ago
      eh targetting bridges, barracks and refineries is not a warcrime
      - justsomehnguy 2y ago
        Specially for you: >> But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. >> "The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to." >> "We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said. While NATO sought to downplay the effect of the strikes on civilians, the raids remain politically sensitive.
  - mapt 2y ago
    Fortunately for Russia & Israel, not to mention the US, there are no longer any earnest attempts to establish an architecture for enforcing the Geneva Convention, except as vengeance of the victors on the losers.
krisoft 2y ago
Why would Putin needs to call? The missiles announce themselves. It sounds like you think the dilemma can only appear in the spur of a moment. Once the missile is already in the air. But the dilemma also appears before that. When you decide where to put your AA batteries, and when you set policy on when and how to engage.

gpderetta 2y ago

Of course not. If everything is a legitimate target the defender has to decide whether to expend limited AA to protect civilian or strategic targets. edit: the value of cheap Iranian drones is specifically that they potentially tie up expensive AA.

mschuster91 2y ago
> If everything is a legitimate target the defender has to decide whether to expend limited AA to protect civilian or strategic targets. And this is precisely why targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime, as is hiding/embedding military infrastructure in or below civilian infrastructure.
- brianwawok 2y ago
  Well better call the war crime police to send offenders to war crime jail.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    There will be quite the aftermath in the Israel/Palestine conflict for that. No matter what, the ICC investigation is here to stay - and both sides will have to face justice. For Russia/Ukraine I'm less certain that anything will come around because even if Russia gets driven out of Ukraine in its entirety, there is zero chance any Russian will be held accountable by anyone on the world stage.
    - mdp2021 2y ago
      > held accountable Failure to "hold accountable" makes the failing part accountable.
    - DecoySalamander 2y ago
      We can hope that Russian economy will be driven to collapse under the weight of military expenditure. Then we might see their elites sacrificing some talking heads to appease US and get sanctions lifted.
- justsomehnguy 2y ago
  > why targeting civilian infrastructure is a war crime Remind me, who was tried for this? >> NATO planes have attacked bridges, oil refineries and other targets in raids that have affected civilians. But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. The alliance has repeatedly insisted its fight is with President Slobodan Milosevic, not with the Yugoslav people. >> "The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to." >> "We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said. While NATO sought to downplay the effect of the strikes on civilians, the raids remain politically sensitive. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/050499kosovo-nato.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/eu...
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Remind me, who was tried for this? I agree that the US / NATO has bent and crossed international rules (way) too much in the past and without consequences - the US didn't sign the ICC accords for a reason.
  - wbl 2y ago
    Wars run on electricity and communications. Bridges and refineries are literally how soldiers move across the battlefield.
  - ashoeafoot 2y ago
    eh targetting bridges, barracks and refineries is not a warcrime
    - justsomehnguy 2y ago
      Specially for you: >> But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. >> "The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to." >> "We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said. While NATO sought to downplay the effect of the strikes on civilians, the raids remain politically sensitive.
- mapt 2y ago
  Fortunately for Russia & Israel, not to mention the US, there are no longer any earnest attempts to establish an architecture for enforcing the Geneva Convention, except as vengeance of the victors on the losers.

krisoft 2y ago

Why would Putin needs to call? The missiles announce themselves. It sounds like you think the dilemma can only appear in the spur of a moment. Once the missile is already in the air. But the dilemma also appears before that. When you decide where to put your AA batteries, and when you set policy on when and how to engage.