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I believe there is a LOT of infrastructure in range of Ukrainian weaponry now too though drones, storm shadow etc?
by bamboozled 2y ago
I believe there is a LOT of infrastructure in range of Ukrainian weaponry now too though drones, storm shadow etc?
- mschuster91 2y agoThe thing is, Ukraine does not want to do the same as Russia does. For one, it would be a war crime on its own, but especially, they don't want to give Putin the propaganda points "the evil UA Nxzis bombed our power plants!!!" that the 5th column worldwide would parrot while conveniently ignoring that Russia did that shit for two years.
- bamboozled 2y agoTrue, they have the information game stitched up tight. But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok.
- mschuster91 2y ago> But if it was retaliation I’m sure it would be ok. I certainly wouldn't cry over some Russians in Moscow feeling the impact of their own war. But unfortunately, Russia's trolls would instantly spin even an immediate reaction to the bombing of an UA power plant in a negative way.
- ethbr1 2y agoOne big PR issue is that Ukraine and the West collectively forgot how deterrence works. Russia arguably never really learned.* Preemptive formulation and announcement: "If you X, we will escalate in Y way. If you do not X, then we will not." Instead, there's a hodgepodge of reactive escalation, which is far less effective. The point is to bargain your willingness to escalate into a self-limitation on your opponent's part. F.ex. this war might never have happened if NATO had said, before the post-Crimea invasion, that if Russia further invades territorial Ukraine then it would supply massive amounts of arms to Ukraine. * Russia, on the other hand, apparently never figured out that announcing everything as a red line and constantly making nuclear threats makes such announcements useless. But it seems like authoritarian regimes often have trouble interacting with freer information spaces.
- bamboozled 2y agoagree, should’ve gave them the storm shadow and Taurus from day one.
- ethbr1 2y agoNo. The UK and Germany should have said something like "If you hit another Ukrainian powerplant, then we will give them Storm Shadow and Taurus." The entire value of deterrence is to deter... not to respond.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoBut minsk should have deterred
- ethbr1 2y agoThere was no clear "... and then" to Minsk, afaik.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoThere was, if one of the partners violates the agreement , he is at war with the others.
- ethbr1 2y agoWhere do you see that in the text? https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-results-of-consultations-of-the-trilateral-contact-group-minsk-05092014 https://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/en/news/27596-protocolon-the-r...
- aguaviva 2y agoBut Minsk was dead for several years already even before the FSO. Nonetheless it seems clear now that the West could have come up with a greatly more coherent escalation strategy that it seems to have sleepwalked into.
- holoduke 2y agoThe dirty games Ukraine is performing are exactly the same as Russia is doing. Both countries are corrupt in an extreme fashion. Just check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. Warcrimes are everywhere there.
- Tade0 2y agoHuge difference in levels of corruption between the two countries. For one, Ukraine ousted Poroshenko after just one term, because he didn't deliver. Meanwhile Russia has been stuck in a cult of personality leadership since the beginning of the 21st century.
- aguaviva 2y agoJust check out how the Ukrainian TCC grabs people from the street and send them to the meatgrinders. No, it's just very bad policy. Taken by a government in a very desperate situation. The fact that you cite this as your primary example suggests that you aren't quite sure what "corruption" actually is.
- realusername 2y agoUkraine has no alternative to mass conscription, if there's one, I'm happy to hear about it. Russia has one alternative to mass conscription though, stopping the war.
- fragmede 2y agoIf Ukraine had any missiles, tipped with nuclear warheads, aimed at Moscow, the situation might be different.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoAnd if my mom had balls she would be my dad, but that's not the case. IFs of the past don't change the present situation.
- 2y ago
- jillesvangurp 2y agoThere is but they only have a finite supply of those weapons. As the Russians are experiencing, going after infrastructure and civilian targets is not really giving them much advantage on the battlefield. And with their own logistical and supply challenges, there seems to be a shortage of actual military targets that they go after. Like Ukrainian troops on Russian soil in the Kursk area. It actually looks like the Ukrainians will spend Christmas and the winter occupying the Kursk area. The Ukrainians are using the threat of these weapons extremely effectively. They've hit a few targets that sounded like they mattered but they are mostly holding back. The not so veiled threat to the Russians here is that anything they value within reach is a potential target. That includes command centers, troop concentrations, defensive weapons, air bases, etc. That's actually resulting in them pulling those things away from the battlefield. So, those missiles are doing their job without getting fired.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoUkraine can build it,especially drones
- nine_k 2y agoActing mean lowers both your own morale and the international support. And any such act, like blowing a substation somewhere in Russia, would likely produce a short-term inconvenience for some civilians at most, while giving the Russian side a legitimate reason to fight harder. It's best if RF soldiers experience shame while serving, not vengefulness. Instead, Ukraine targets oil refineries that produce fuel for the army / air force, with some success. This does not cause civilian casualties: though some employees might be hurt, I never heard of the workers dying as a result. That's the kind of infrastructure, along with military infrastructure, that is likely wise to attack on the Russian soil.
- bamboozled 2y agoI know that, I just mean if Russia hits the power plants, the chance of severe retaliation is growing.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoThe meat feels nothing while contracting in waves.it does not rebel against the butcher, its certainly not thinking in western projections.
- nine_k 2y agoApparently high desertion rates likely signal that they are not keen to rather die fighting, like highly motivated and enraged people would.