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Strange. I haven't used a table for page layout since the 90s and I haven't missed them, either. Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables a

by tdavis 18y ago

Strange. I haven't used a table for page layout since the 90s and I haven't missed them, either. Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them.

fauigerzigerk 18y ago
CSS isn't meant for page layout either. That's pretty obvious if you look at the kind of low level nastiness that you have to put into your code in order to get even the simplest layouts.
- iron_ball 18y ago
  Amen. If CSS were good for page layout, we wouldn't need special CSS frameworks just to get a three-column page. A three-column page with independent column heights would not be called "the holy grail" -- it would be effortless. CSS sucks. (edit: So do tables. Really, HTML, CSS, and Javascript all sucks. Browsers suck. The web environment sucks. We use it because of what it lets us do, not because it's a friendly programming environment.)
- ntoshev 18y ago
  It is meant for page layout, only it's not that good at it.
andreyf 18y ago
Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them. If CSS is meant for layout, and tables aren't meant for layout, wouldn't you expect CSS to be easier to use?
- tdavis 18y ago
  Well, I should have said that tables are easier sometimes. But all the layouts that people complain about being hard in CSS are already written; it's essentially copy and paste at this point. YUI Grids, Blueprint, blah blah... just pick one. Tables are hard for everyone but the developer (and eventually the developer unless they never change anything) for reasons you can find in this thread. You know, I'd expect CSS to be better, not necessarily easier. It isn't CSS that makes CSS hard, it's browsers, since they all choose to render the rules slightly differently. It's the same reason JS sucks; Browser A does this, B does that. Just the way of the world. You can use the tools as they were designed and lose a little more hair in the process, or you can cram a square peg in a round hole and use tables for layout. That's basically what it comes down to.

by tdavis 18y ago

fauigerzigerk 18y ago

CSS isn't meant for page layout either. That's pretty obvious if you look at the kind of low level nastiness that you have to put into your code in order to get even the simplest layouts.

iron_ball 18y ago
Amen. If CSS were good for page layout, we wouldn't need special CSS frameworks just to get a three-column page. A three-column page with independent column heights would not be called "the holy grail" -- it would be effortless. CSS sucks. (edit: So do tables. Really, HTML, CSS, and Javascript all sucks. Browsers suck. The web environment sucks. We use it because of what it lets us do, not because it's a friendly programming environment.)
ntoshev 18y ago
It is meant for page layout, only it's not that good at it.

andreyf 18y ago

Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them. If CSS is meant for layout, and tables aren't meant for layout, wouldn't you expect CSS to be easier to use?

tdavis 18y ago
Well, I should have said that tables are easier sometimes. But all the layouts that people complain about being hard in CSS are already written; it's essentially copy and paste at this point. YUI Grids, Blueprint, blah blah... just pick one. Tables are hard for everyone but the developer (and eventually the developer unless they never change anything) for reasons you can find in this thread. You know, I'd expect CSS to be better, not necessarily easier. It isn't CSS that makes CSS hard, it's browsers, since they all choose to render the rules slightly differently. It's the same reason JS sucks; Browser A does this, B does that. Just the way of the world. You can use the tools as they were designed and lose a little more hair in the process, or you can cram a square peg in a round hole and use tables for layout. That's basically what it comes down to.