3 ms·

The same logic holds true for a an incel gunning down women or someone shooting up a church because they feel harmed.

by s1artibartfast 2y ago

bdangubic 2y ago
that is nowhere near same logic :)
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  If we throw up our hands and accept that each individual can be the judge of injustice, and execute whatever retribution they see fit, these individuals also meet that criteria. By abandoning democratic law, you also abandon 3rd party discretion and control over which injustices are legitimate.
- tptacek 2y ago
  It's exactly the same logic. You can't just take your own set of issues, say you're obviously right about everything, and then factor out everybody else's big issues. If you make a consequentialist argument for murdering insurance executives, other people do in fact get to use the same moral logic to stop things you disagree with them about, like gender-affirming care and abortion.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    being directly responsible for someone’s death is just not the same as having a difference of an opinion (like we are having). I will definitely not try and hunt you down… however, if you are responsible for a death of my loved one - that might be another story… jokes aside, I am not saying this tragedy was justified in any way but we are not talking here about “opinions” and “religion” for sure
    - tptacek 2y ago
      Sure. Again: if you just hate the guy and have no compunctions about saying why after he's murdered, then whatever, that's not interesting enough to argue about. But if you're literally saying "this was good and more like this would be better" --- and some people are --- that is a notably warped proposition.
      - justinclift 2y ago
        People make excuses for these CEO's using the same logic though don't they? At what point is defending their murdering of people an acceptable approach? :)
        tptacek 2y ago
        By that logic, every health system in the entire world is murdering people constantly. Meanwhile: I'm talking about a guy walking up to an executive and shooting him in the chest.
        justinclift 2y ago
        > By that logic, every health system in the entire world is murdering people constantly. Not at all. The US "health care" system has the extremely bad reputation it has for a reason. This guy seems to (for all we know) have only killed a single person (so far). The person he shot has likely killed far more. I'm not sure why you're ok with that, or am I misunderstanding?
        tptacek 2y ago
        That's an appeal to popular culture, but every health system makes decisions that deprive some people of necessary care. Resources are finite.
        justinclift 2y ago
        The US "Health Care" system seems to be taking the piss though: https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/15/unitedhealthcare_ai_medicine/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/15/unitedhealthcare_ai_m...

The same logic holds true for a an incel gunning down women or someone shooting up a church because they feel harmed.

bdangubic 2y ago

that is nowhere near same logic :)

s1artibartfast 2y ago
If we throw up our hands and accept that each individual can be the judge of injustice, and execute whatever retribution they see fit, these individuals also meet that criteria. By abandoning democratic law, you also abandon 3rd party discretion and control over which injustices are legitimate.
tptacek 2y ago
It's exactly the same logic. You can't just take your own set of issues, say you're obviously right about everything, and then factor out everybody else's big issues. If you make a consequentialist argument for murdering insurance executives, other people do in fact get to use the same moral logic to stop things you disagree with them about, like gender-affirming care and abortion.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  being directly responsible for someone’s death is just not the same as having a difference of an opinion (like we are having). I will definitely not try and hunt you down… however, if you are responsible for a death of my loved one - that might be another story… jokes aside, I am not saying this tragedy was justified in any way but we are not talking here about “opinions” and “religion” for sure
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Sure. Again: if you just hate the guy and have no compunctions about saying why after he's murdered, then whatever, that's not interesting enough to argue about. But if you're literally saying "this was good and more like this would be better" --- and some people are --- that is a notably warped proposition.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      People make excuses for these CEO's using the same logic though don't they? At what point is defending their murdering of people an acceptable approach? :)
      - tptacek 2y ago
        By that logic, every health system in the entire world is murdering people constantly. Meanwhile: I'm talking about a guy walking up to an executive and shooting him in the chest.
        justinclift 2y ago
        > By that logic, every health system in the entire world is murdering people constantly. Not at all. The US "health care" system has the extremely bad reputation it has for a reason. This guy seems to (for all we know) have only killed a single person (so far). The person he shot has likely killed far more. I'm not sure why you're ok with that, or am I misunderstanding?
        tptacek 2y ago
        That's an appeal to popular culture, but every health system makes decisions that deprive some people of necessary care. Resources are finite.
        justinclift 2y ago
        The US "Health Care" system seems to be taking the piss though: https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/15/unitedhealthcare_ai_medicine/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/15/unitedhealthcare_ai_m...