6 ms·

It's impossible to do business in Africa without bribing people, all these laws do is put Western companies at a tremendous disadvantage compared to Chinese one

It's impossible to do business in Africa without bribing people, all these laws do is put Western companies at a tremendous disadvantage compared to Chinese ones.

passwordoops 2y ago
In my first real job about a decade ago, I asked the APAC/China rep why the prices were 30-40% higher... "The hookers and bribes tax. Hookers and bribes"
akira2501 2y ago
> impossible to do business in Africa without bribing people Why? > all these laws do is put Western companies at a tremendous disadvantage While attempting to address a serious problem. You could say this of any law. > compared to Chinese ones. Not a standard I care about or am willing to be held hostage to. Moral sacrifice to capture international business is pretty gross. Probably why it wasn't even hard to pass the law.
- weard_beard 2y ago
  Adding: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674299344 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674299344 and: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674979796 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674979796 to my christmas list. I don't think the law or war are appropriate tools for establishing international morality, but maybe the right ones are somewhere in these.
- ip26 2y ago
  Why? The explanation I've heard before is that when you need anything from a thoroughly corrupt government, as simple as a building permit or a visa for a foreign employee involved in a project, officials will simply not process your request without a bribe. They believe it is owed. End of story. I don't like the explanation in the slightest. But I do see how it might shut down opportunity if you can't overpower the obstacles, and aren't willing to bribe. The utility of US laws against bribing foreign officials is to break down the expectation by those officials of a bribe. But, from a game theory point of view, if China is willing to bribe, this becomes much less effective.
  - unix_fan 2y ago
    The same happens in Latin America as well. If you want to get through the layers of bureaucracy without being stuck for years in a process, you have to pay up. And it has to be a well-connected government official. That’s mostly the reason I don’t bother with anything entrepreneurship related here.
- chasd00 2y ago
  You can’t put a house over your head and food in your kid’s plate with morals.
  - stonogo 2y ago
    Sounds like a skill issue. People do it every day.
  - taskforcegemini 2y ago
    I hope you will change your mind before you have kids of your own
- highcountess 2y ago
  Because there is no mechanism in basically all of Africa that would put some kind of limit on it. No strong governmental institutions, no moral framework, no religious framework. And to the contrary, the African continent is largely antithetical to western/European moral, ethical, and philosophical limitations. People just assume Africans are the same as Europeans and Asians, etc. because they’ve had it hammered into their minds all their lives, but reality is that we are all quite different and that’s good in some ways and bad in others, but it’s different.
  - abdulhaq 2y ago
    Err totally wrong the entire north Africa has strong religious frameworks, and take Egypt as an example of a powerful government. Plenty of other places too.
    - highcountess 2y ago
      I knew I should specify sub-Saharan Africa, because there’s always that Reddit tier knowing and willful idiot contrarian that just can’t help themselves from just being opposite for sake of being opposite, due to a severe mental derangement that compels them to be that way. We are not talking about North Africa here, we are talking about South Africa and South Africa like places, which would mean sub-Saharan Africa, not Egypt or Algeria or Tunisia. You lack refinement and do not contribute anything useful, and may want to reflect on why you have that contrarian compulsion. No one is talking about North Africa. All the intelligent people here know we are talking about Africa in the context of South Africa. You clearly lack fundamental skills to distinguish such things.
    - blackhawkC17 2y ago
      Powerful government doesn’t imply strong institutions that uphold rule of law. It’s usually the opposite…powerful governments rule with an iron fist but are internally marred by corruption and incompetence.
      - abdulhaq 2y ago
axiolite 2y ago
US oil companies like ExxonMobile have survived on the international market just fine, despite the laws preventing them handing out bribes for the past several decades. There are several examples of bribes being publicized and the guilty company losing out on big contracts as a result (e.g. from ECHELON spying).
- buckle8017 2y ago
  Yeah they've survived by paying bribes.
  - jamesfinlayson 2y ago
    Yeah, I have a friend who worked in South-East Asia for a while - he said that his company paid "agents" whose job was specifically to pay the bribes on behalf of his company so that they themselves wouldn't get in trouble for paying the bribes.
- alborzb 2y ago
  >> US oil companies like ExxonMobile Is that the same ExxonMobile that was caught in a bribery corruption scandal in Liberia in Africa? [1] Or perhaps you're talking about the same ExxonMobile that was caught bribing government officials in Kazakhstan in Asia? [2] [1] https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/full-report-catch-me-if-you-can-exxon-complicit-in-corrupt-liberian-oil-sector/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/full-rep... [2] https://www.forbes.com/2003/04/23/cz_df_0423xom.html https://www.forbes.com/2003/04/23/cz_df_0423xom.html

It's impossible to do business in Africa without bribing people, all these laws do is put Western companies at a tremendous disadvantage compared to Chinese ones.

passwordoops 2y ago

In my first real job about a decade ago, I asked the APAC/China rep why the prices were 30-40% higher... "The hookers and bribes tax. Hookers and bribes"

akira2501 2y ago

> impossible to do business in Africa without bribing people Why? > all these laws do is put Western companies at a tremendous disadvantage While attempting to address a serious problem. You could say this of any law. > compared to Chinese ones. Not a standard I care about or am willing to be held hostage to. Moral sacrifice to capture international business is pretty gross. Probably why it wasn't even hard to pass the law.

weard_beard 2y ago
Adding: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674299344 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674299344 and: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674979796 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674979796 to my christmas list. I don't think the law or war are appropriate tools for establishing international morality, but maybe the right ones are somewhere in these.
ip26 2y ago
Why? The explanation I've heard before is that when you need anything from a thoroughly corrupt government, as simple as a building permit or a visa for a foreign employee involved in a project, officials will simply not process your request without a bribe. They believe it is owed. End of story. I don't like the explanation in the slightest. But I do see how it might shut down opportunity if you can't overpower the obstacles, and aren't willing to bribe. The utility of US laws against bribing foreign officials is to break down the expectation by those officials of a bribe. But, from a game theory point of view, if China is willing to bribe, this becomes much less effective.
- unix_fan 2y ago
  The same happens in Latin America as well. If you want to get through the layers of bureaucracy without being stuck for years in a process, you have to pay up. And it has to be a well-connected government official. That’s mostly the reason I don’t bother with anything entrepreneurship related here.
chasd00 2y ago
You can’t put a house over your head and food in your kid’s plate with morals.
- stonogo 2y ago
  Sounds like a skill issue. People do it every day.
- taskforcegemini 2y ago
  I hope you will change your mind before you have kids of your own
highcountess 2y ago
Because there is no mechanism in basically all of Africa that would put some kind of limit on it. No strong governmental institutions, no moral framework, no religious framework. And to the contrary, the African continent is largely antithetical to western/European moral, ethical, and philosophical limitations. People just assume Africans are the same as Europeans and Asians, etc. because they’ve had it hammered into their minds all their lives, but reality is that we are all quite different and that’s good in some ways and bad in others, but it’s different.
- abdulhaq 2y ago
  Err totally wrong the entire north Africa has strong religious frameworks, and take Egypt as an example of a powerful government. Plenty of other places too.
  - highcountess 2y ago
    I knew I should specify sub-Saharan Africa, because there’s always that Reddit tier knowing and willful idiot contrarian that just can’t help themselves from just being opposite for sake of being opposite, due to a severe mental derangement that compels them to be that way. We are not talking about North Africa here, we are talking about South Africa and South Africa like places, which would mean sub-Saharan Africa, not Egypt or Algeria or Tunisia. You lack refinement and do not contribute anything useful, and may want to reflect on why you have that contrarian compulsion. No one is talking about North Africa. All the intelligent people here know we are talking about Africa in the context of South Africa. You clearly lack fundamental skills to distinguish such things.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    Powerful government doesn’t imply strong institutions that uphold rule of law. It’s usually the opposite…powerful governments rule with an iron fist but are internally marred by corruption and incompetence.
    - abdulhaq 2y ago

axiolite 2y ago

US oil companies like ExxonMobile have survived on the international market just fine, despite the laws preventing them handing out bribes for the past several decades. There are several examples of bribes being publicized and the guilty company losing out on big contracts as a result (e.g. from ECHELON spying).

buckle8017 2y ago
Yeah they've survived by paying bribes.
- jamesfinlayson 2y ago
  Yeah, I have a friend who worked in South-East Asia for a while - he said that his company paid "agents" whose job was specifically to pay the bribes on behalf of his company so that they themselves wouldn't get in trouble for paying the bribes.
alborzb 2y ago
>> US oil companies like ExxonMobile Is that the same ExxonMobile that was caught in a bribery corruption scandal in Liberia in Africa? [1] Or perhaps you're talking about the same ExxonMobile that was caught bribing government officials in Kazakhstan in Asia? [2] [1] https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/full-report-catch-me-if-you-can-exxon-complicit-in-corrupt-liberian-oil-sector/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/full-rep... [2] https://www.forbes.com/2003/04/23/cz_df_0423xom.html https://www.forbes.com/2003/04/23/cz_df_0423xom.html