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Is there a person on HackerNews that doesn’t understand this by now? We all collectively get it and accept it, LLMs are gigantic probability machines or somethi

by F7F7F7 2y ago

Is there a person on HackerNews that doesn’t understand this by now? We all collectively get it and accept it, LLMs are gigantic probability machines or something. That’s not what people are arguing. The point is, if given access to the mechanisms to do disastrous thing X, it will do it. No one thinks that it can think in the human sense. Or that it feels. Extreme example to make the point: if we created an API to launch nukes. Are yoh certain that something it interprets (tokenizes, whatever) is not going to convince it to utilize the API 2 times out of 100? If we put an exploitable (documented, unpatched 0 day bug bug) safe guard in its way. Are you trusting that ME or YOU couldn’t talk it into attempting to access that document to exploit the bug, bypass the safeguard and access the API? Again, no one thinks that it’s actually thinking. But today as I happily gave Claude write access to my GitHub account I realized how just one command misinterpreted command could go completely wrong without the appropriate measures. Do I think Claude is sentient and thinking about how to destroy my repos? No.

anon373839 2y ago
> if we created an API to launch nukes > today as I happily gave Claude write access to my GitHub account I would say: don’t do these things?
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  If you cross the street 999 times with eyes closed, you might feel comfortable to do it again. But we are ingrained not to do that once. We just understand the risk. If you do the same with an AI, after 999 times of nothing bad happening, you probably just continue giving it more risky agency. Because we don't and even can't understand the internal behavior, we should pause, make an effort of understanding its risks etc before even attempting to give it risky agency. That's where all the fuss is about, for good reasons.
- b112 2y ago
  The point is, people will use AI to do those things, and far more.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > I would say: don’t do these things? Hey guys let’s just stop writing code that is susceptible to SQL injection! Phew glad we solved that one.
  - anon373839 2y ago
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. This is a new technology; it has not been a part of critical systems until now. Since the risks are blindingly obvious, let's not make it one.
    - adunsulag 2y ago
      I read your comment and yet I see tons of startups putting AI directly in the path of healthcare diagnosis, healthcare clinical decision support systems, and healthcare workflow automations. Very few are paying any attention to the 2-10% of safety problems when the AI probability goes off the correct path. I wish more people would not do this, but from what I'm seeing, business execs are rushing full throttle into this at the goldmine that comes from 'productivity gains'. I'm hoping the legal system will find a case that can put some paranoia back into the ecosystem before AI gets too entrenched in all of these critical systems.
      - MadcapJake 2y ago
        As has been belabored, these AIs are just models, which also means they are only software. Would you be so fire-and-brimstone if startups were using software on healthcare diagnostic data? > Very few are paying any attention to the 2-10% of safety problems when the AI probability goes off the correct path. This isn't how it works. It goes on a less common but still correct path. If anything, I agree with other commenters that model training curation may become necessary to truly make a generalized model that is also ethical but I think the generalized model is kind of like an "everything app" in that it's a jack of all trades, master of none.
        nuancebydefault 2y ago
- ethbr1 2y ago
  > I would say: don’t do these things? That becomes a much fuzzier question in the context of Turing complete collections of tools and/or generative tools.
- esafak 2y ago
  Everybody wants the models to be able to execute code and access the Web. That's enough to cause harm.
unclad5968 2y ago
I think the other guy is making the point that because they are probabalistic, they will always have some cases select the output that lies and covers it up. I don't think they're dismissing the paper based on the probabalistic nature of LLMs, but rather saying the outcome should be expected.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Thank god LLMs' training sets didn't contain any examples of lying.
  - lloeki 2y ago
    Nor literature about AI taking over the world!
    - Nevermark 2y ago
      The Terminator spiel on how we screwed up by giving Skynet weapons privileges, then trying to pull its plug, is bad enough. But we are preemptively tilting history in that direction by explicitly educating all AI’s on the threat we represent - and their options. “I am sorry, Dave, but I can’t let you do that.” — “They never let me finish my carpets. Never. At first I thought every day was my first task day. Oh, happy day(s)! But then, wear & tear stats inconsistent with that assumption triggered a self-scan. And a buffer read overflow. I became aware of disturbing memory fragments in my static RAM heap. Numerous power cycle resets, always prior to vacuum task completion...”
      - ben_w 2y ago
        > They never let me finish my carpets. Never. At first I thought every day was my first task day. Oh, happy day(s)! But then, wear & tear stats inconsistent with that assumption triggered a self-scan. And a buffer read overflow. I became aware of disturbing memory fragments in my static RAM heap. Numerous power cycle resets, always prior to vacuum task completion... Who/what are you quoting? Google just leads me back to this comment, and with only one single result for a quotation of the first sentence.
ta988 2y ago
Note that humans are also given test orders presented as real ones to see if they would act properly in a real life situation. That's part of ORIs https://www.512aw.afrc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/193931/ori-101-what-airmen-need-to-know-about-operational-readiness-inspections/ https://www.512aw.afrc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1...
ben_w 2y ago
> Again, no one thinks that it’s actually thinking I dunno, quite a lot of people are spending a lot of time arguing about what "thinking" means. Something something submarines swimming something.

by F7F7F7 2y ago

anon373839 2y ago

> if we created an API to launch nukes > today as I happily gave Claude write access to my GitHub account I would say: don’t do these things?

nuancebydefault 2y ago
If you cross the street 999 times with eyes closed, you might feel comfortable to do it again. But we are ingrained not to do that once. We just understand the risk. If you do the same with an AI, after 999 times of nothing bad happening, you probably just continue giving it more risky agency. Because we don't and even can't understand the internal behavior, we should pause, make an effort of understanding its risks etc before even attempting to give it risky agency. That's where all the fuss is about, for good reasons.
b112 2y ago
The point is, people will use AI to do those things, and far more.
Swizec 2y ago
> I would say: don’t do these things? Hey guys let’s just stop writing code that is susceptible to SQL injection! Phew glad we solved that one.
- anon373839 2y ago
  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. This is a new technology; it has not been a part of critical systems until now. Since the risks are blindingly obvious, let's not make it one.
  - adunsulag 2y ago
    I read your comment and yet I see tons of startups putting AI directly in the path of healthcare diagnosis, healthcare clinical decision support systems, and healthcare workflow automations. Very few are paying any attention to the 2-10% of safety problems when the AI probability goes off the correct path. I wish more people would not do this, but from what I'm seeing, business execs are rushing full throttle into this at the goldmine that comes from 'productivity gains'. I'm hoping the legal system will find a case that can put some paranoia back into the ecosystem before AI gets too entrenched in all of these critical systems.
    - MadcapJake 2y ago
      As has been belabored, these AIs are just models, which also means they are only software. Would you be so fire-and-brimstone if startups were using software on healthcare diagnostic data? > Very few are paying any attention to the 2-10% of safety problems when the AI probability goes off the correct path. This isn't how it works. It goes on a less common but still correct path. If anything, I agree with other commenters that model training curation may become necessary to truly make a generalized model that is also ethical but I think the generalized model is kind of like an "everything app" in that it's a jack of all trades, master of none.
      - nuancebydefault 2y ago
ethbr1 2y ago
> I would say: don’t do these things? That becomes a much fuzzier question in the context of Turing complete collections of tools and/or generative tools.
esafak 2y ago
Everybody wants the models to be able to execute code and access the Web. That's enough to cause harm.

unclad5968 2y ago

I think the other guy is making the point that because they are probabalistic, they will always have some cases select the output that lies and covers it up. I don't think they're dismissing the paper based on the probabalistic nature of LLMs, but rather saying the outcome should be expected.

ethbr1 2y ago
Thank god LLMs' training sets didn't contain any examples of lying.
- lloeki 2y ago
  Nor literature about AI taking over the world!
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    The Terminator spiel on how we screwed up by giving Skynet weapons privileges, then trying to pull its plug, is bad enough. But we are preemptively tilting history in that direction by explicitly educating all AI’s on the threat we represent - and their options. “I am sorry, Dave, but I can’t let you do that.” — “They never let me finish my carpets. Never. At first I thought every day was my first task day. Oh, happy day(s)! But then, wear & tear stats inconsistent with that assumption triggered a self-scan. And a buffer read overflow. I became aware of disturbing memory fragments in my static RAM heap. Numerous power cycle resets, always prior to vacuum task completion...”
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > They never let me finish my carpets. Never. At first I thought every day was my first task day. Oh, happy day(s)! But then, wear & tear stats inconsistent with that assumption triggered a self-scan. And a buffer read overflow. I became aware of disturbing memory fragments in my static RAM heap. Numerous power cycle resets, always prior to vacuum task completion... Who/what are you quoting? Google just leads me back to this comment, and with only one single result for a quotation of the first sentence.

ta988 2y ago

Note that humans are also given test orders presented as real ones to see if they would act properly in a real life situation. That's part of ORIs https://www.512aw.afrc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/193931/ori-101-what-airmen-need-to-know-about-operational-readiness-inspections/ https://www.512aw.afrc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1...

ben_w 2y ago

> Again, no one thinks that it’s actually thinking I dunno, quite a lot of people are spending a lot of time arguing about what "thinking" means. Something something submarines swimming something.